So where in ancient accounts do we find a heavenly sovereign and princes (sons) that were military?
We don't. I suspect that you didn't read my reply properly.
So where in ancient accounts do we find a heavenly sovereign and princes (sons) that were military?
To be fair, the military format of the 18th Degree and all of the rest of the French degrees didn't exist before their invention in the wake of the famous oration to French Freemasons delivered by the Chevalier Ramsay (a Scot who lived most of his life in France) in 1737.
Such an affirmation means that at least we should eliminate the hypothesis of a military origin of the Craft as there are evidences about. Unfortunately I have not found these evidences in Masonic literature but perhaps there are other that I have not found.
If it is correct that the Scottish Rite and particularly the most part of its degrees is a product of eighteen-century (but I do not think that this is completely true) we can not say with certainty if before 1700 Freemasonry had a military form or not. Or better, I am of the idea that the “French invention” is likely a modification of the original form of Freemasonry and not simply a product of Ramsay’s speech, which only allowed the misleading connection with the Templars.
No discussion about this. However its very beginning are unknown except from the fact that since 1733 / 1735 there are traces about higher degrees and "scots lodges" and not in France but in England and Ireland.When it comes to AA(S)R we do however have a trace back to France and the jacobite struggle (schottish) and later that the rite recived its current overall form in the early 1800s in the US
Sorry but I have not understood your sentence.Maybe there is litterature wich you dont have acess to that points to certain ideas
Likely I have expressed myself wrong as I though it was referred not only to the appendant bodies and I was referring to the AA(S)R. My mistake.
No discussion about this. However its very beginning are unknown except from the fact that since 1733 / 1735 there are traces about higher degrees and "scots lodges" and not in France but in England and Ireland.
Sorry but I have not understood your sentence.
Shhhhh! If my wife discover it my two free evenings every months are in danger!remember correctly, you are not a freemason. So maybe there are things that you are not allowed acess to that fully points at certain ideas.
Shhhhh! If my wife discover it my two free evenings every months are in danger!
Seriously speaking I know the story of the AA(S)R at least the one reported by various scholars. I'm not however involved in the Rite, therefore if there is anything more that is explained to higher degrees I cannot know it, except what is reported by various scholars (I mean referred only to history, not to contents). However the "association" that I have found in my researches which has a lot of similarities with Freemasonry had also a system that could be defined as "degree of perfection", therefore if my findings are correct, the AA(S)R pre-history could be older than what is thought.
>a system that could be defined as "degree of perfection",
Locally the 18th degree "perfects" the new brother. Allegedly it is a Christian degree, but I thought that only Christ was perfect.
The degree is full of alchemical symbolism directed to the perfection of matter. If so the original working may date much earlier than the 18th century.
Greetings Brothers it's been awhile, good stuff. You all covered everything I have heard and more !No comment, also because we are likely off-topic.
Coming back to the initial question, my answer is: at least since from the oldest information we have. The Regius Poem and the other manuscripts cite many different sources like the Polychronicon, the Historia Scholastica, the Ethymologiarum of Isidore and The Golden Legend and others not clearly declared. All these books were popular, but not so common, because books were expensive and rare, at least till Gutenberg. Moreover the real operative masons of middle age were mainly illiterate (as also many nobles and even church people). The text of the Masonic manuscripts instead is for people who had a knowledge that at the time was characteristics of a higher education (read: at university level or similar). And hidden under the text there are many other references that denotes a high cultural level for the time. It is not by chance that the Liberal Arts are cited, which is also important for the answer as the speculation on the knowledge and education, basic and spiritual, took a big part in the intellectual discussions in the late middle age. A poor stonecutter could not access even to a very basic instruction, let alone an higher education.
No comment, also because we are likely off-topic.
Coming back to the initial question, my answer is: at least since from the oldest information we have. The Regius Poem and the other manuscripts cite many different sources like the Polychronicon, the Historia Scholastica, the Ethymologiarum of Isidore and The Golden Legend and others not clearly declared. All these books were popular, but not so common, because books were expensive and rare, at least till Gutenberg. Moreover the real operative masons of middle age were mainly illiterate (as also many nobles and even church people). The text of the Masonic manuscripts instead is for people who had a knowledge that at the time was characteristics of a higher education (read: at university level or similar). And hidden under the text there are many other references that denotes a high cultural level for the time. It is not by chance that the Liberal Arts are cited, which is also important for the answer as the speculation on the knowledge and education, basic and spiritual, took a big part in the intellectual discussions in the late middle age. A poor stonecutter could not access even to a very basic instruction, let alone an higher education.
>a system that could be defined as "degree of perfection",
Locally the 18th degree "perfects" the new brother. Allegedly it is a Christian degree, but I thought that only Christ was perfect.
The degree is full of alchemical symbolism directed to the perfection of matter. If so the original working may date much earlier than the 18th century.
I have difficulty with this contention and I would be grateful for your clarification as to its foundation.No comment, also because we are likely off-topic.
Coming back to the initial question, my answer is: at least since from the oldest information we have. The Regius Poem and the other manuscripts cite many different sources like the Polychronicon, the Historia Scholastica, the Ethymologiarum of Isidore and The Golden Legend and others not clearly declared.
Excellent information, thank you.I'm sorry but I have not completely understood your post. The complete answer in any case is very long, therefore pardon me if I will give you only some indications. The citation, or better, in some cases, the reference to the books I have mentioned, can be found directly or after some researches as the author cited the entire book but not the point to which he was referring. In any case here are some direct citations.