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Question on if you have ever been charged with a felony?

MGM357

Registered User
Maybe our definition of crimes have changed to some over time. The definition of Masonry hasn't changed for me for almost 20 years. Masonry should never be copromised. The laws and by laws, rituals, and obligations were created to preserve Masonry beyond many lifetimes. I feel that we (Masons) should be obligated to preserve Masonry without any compromise. If and when my son decides to become a Mason, I want it to be the same exact experience I had. I hope that the laws of Masonry aren't changed just for convenience and we might feel bad if we have to say no.

By no means am I a saint of any kind. Fortunately I have walked the line and never committed a felony. Masonry is one of the great rewards for that, and I am proud of it. We are to make GOOD men better.
 

Bill Lins

Moderating Staff
Staff Member
doesn't the felony have to be of "moral terpitude?"

As I read our petition, it says "a felony or misdemeanor involving moral turpitude". This would seem to exclude such misdemeanors as speeding or illegal parking.

As to the definition of "moral turpitude", the following was found on Wikipedia:

Moral turpitude is a legal concept in the United States that refers to "conduct that is considered contrary to community standards of justice, honesty or good morals."

The concept of moral turpitude escapes precise definition but has been described as an "act of baseness, vileness or depravity in the private and social duties which a man owes to his fellowmen, or to society in general, contrary to the accepted and customary rule of right and duty between man and man."

Until recent times, a man engaged in homosexual behavior was considered to be engaging in "criminal behavior involving moral turpitude".


HTH
 
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CarlGlas

Registered User
Art. 393. Qualifications.

A candidate for the degrees of Masonry must be free-born, sound in mind, of good moral character, a full eighteen years of age on or before the day his petition is received by the Lodge, and without maim or defect which will render him incapable of earning his own living or receiving and imparting, Masonically, all that is required by the ritual of the several degrees: provided that as to physical maims and defects Articles 27 and 401 of these Laws shall be applicable.

After the foregoing requirements have been strictly met, the question of the candidate’s mental, moral, and such physical qualifications as do not come within the restrictions of Art. 401 is one to be decided within the sound discretion of the members of the Lodge petitioned.

Art. 398. (435). Questions Answered by Candidate.

Before a candidate can be initiated he must answer, in writing, each of the following questions:

1. Do you promise, upon your honor, to strictly adhere to and be governed by the Constitution and Laws of The Grand Lodge of Texas and the by-laws of this Lodge?

2. Do you sincerely declare, upon your honor, that, unbiased by friends and uninfluenced by mercenary motives, you freely and voluntarily offer yourself as a candidate for the Mysteries of Masonry?

3. Do you seriously declare, upon your honor, that you are prompted to solicit the privileges of Masonry by a favorable opinion conceived of the institution, a desire for knowledge, and a sincere desire to be of greater service to your fellow men?

4. Do you seriously declare, upon your honor, that you will cheerfully conform to all the ancient established usages and customs of Masonry?

5. Do you seriously declare, upon your honor, that you firmly believe in the existence of God, the immortality of the 395-398 Title IV – Chapter 1
(Revised 1995) 168 soul, and in the divine authenticity of the Holy Scriptures?

6. Do you seriously declare, upon your honor, that you have never before petitioned any Lodge of Masons for the degrees or any of them?

Art. 403. (440). Petition for Degrees: Requisites.

A candidate for the degrees must file with the Secretary of the Lodge a petition in writing, which must be presented to the Lodge at a stated meeting only.
The petition must state the name of the petitioner in full; his age; date and place of birth; his domicile during the preceding twelve months; and shall contain all other matters required by law and Form No. 26. Said petition shall be signed by the petitioner in person and shall be recommended and the application personally signed by not less than two members of the Lodge.

Form No. 26 - Question No. 16

Have you ever been charged with a felony or a misdemeanor involving moral turpitude? Yes__ or No__. If so, when and where?
Give details_________________ .


Legal Dictionary

Moral turpitude
1 : an act or behavior that gravely violates the sentiment or accepted standard of the community
2 : a quality of dishonesty or other immorality that is determined by a court to be present in the commission of a criminal offense

NOTE: Whether a criminal offense involves moral turpitude is an important determination in deportation, disbarment, and other disciplinary hearings. Past crimes involving moral turpitude usually may also be introduced as evidence to impeach testimony. Theft, perjury, vice crimes, bigamy, and rape have generally been found to involve moral turpitude, while liquor law violations and disorderly conduct generally have not.



http://dictionary.reference.com/cite.html?qh=moral+turpitude&ia=mwlaw





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JTM

"Just in case"
Premium Member
As I read our petition, it says "a felony or misdemeanor involving moral turpitude". This would seem to exclude such misdemeanors as speeding or illegal parking.

As to the definition of "moral turpitude", the following was found on Wikipedia:

Moral turpitude is a legal concept in the United States that refers to "conduct that is considered contrary to community standards of justice, honesty or good morals."

The concept of moral turpitude escapes precise definition but has been described as an "act of baseness, vileness or depravity in the private and social duties which a man owes to his fellowmen, or to society in general, contrary to the accepted and customary rule of right and duty between man and man."

Until recent times, a man engaged in homosexual behavior was considered to be engaging in "criminal behavior involving moral turpitude".


HTH

that's slightly ambiguous. i feel like if someone is doing pot and gets a felony, it's not something that should kick him out of masonry.

obligatory edit: i don't do pot, nor do i endorse it... but i don't think it's a moral issue.

edit2: also, are you saying that homosexuals shouldn't be allowed into lodge? aka, cannot be "good men" because they are gay?


/canofworms
 

CarlGlas

Registered User
I agree that it is ambiguous and perhaps it is left up to the interpretation of the individual lodges because the petitioner is only asked if he has been charged with a felony or a misdemeanor involving moral turpitude. It doesn't ask if he had been convicted.

I'm thinking that if having a felony charge or conviction was a automatic disqualification, the petition would state so. (It sure goes into details about ones physical defects.) However, it doesn't, but asks the petitioner for details. Maybe it is left to the discretion of the investigative committee who reports its findings to the members of the lodge who then make the final decision.

A felony conviction is something that stays with a person forever unless it is overturned by a court of law, removed by an executive order of a state governor, or if a federal felony, the President of the United States.

I do believe that people make mistakes and once they have paid for their mistake and have stayed out of trouble for 5, 10, 15, or 20 years, their debt to society should be marked PAID and they should be released from their title of convicted felon.

If a man is seeking Light, then he must be a good man and we all know that Masonry makes a good man better.

 

ndfire83

Registered User
[SIZE=3 I'm thinking that if having a felony charge or conviction was a automatic disqualification, the petition would state so.

[/SIZE]

Our petitions in ND ask if you beleive in a Supreme Being/Deity. If you answer NO that is an automatin disqualifcation. it dosen't say that if you put no you can't become a member but we know that is the case. So, why would the petition have to say if you answer a question this way you can't be a member. If it said that they would say what they had to.
 

TexMass

Registered User
I have asked a few people in my home Lodge and no one has an answer on if that is a "deal breaker". I have heard that there might be a person that is going to petition our Lodge and has been charged with a felony. Does that mean we can't let him in? Like I said earlier in ND I can't get a satisfying answer.

I'm confused. Your original post says "charged" with a felony. That's not the same as convicted. If they are only charged then they should wait until their legal issues have run their course.
 

Bill Lins

Moderating Staff
Staff Member
i feel like if someone is doing pot and gets a felony, it's not something that should kick him out of masonry.

Simply "doing pot" is not a felony. One must possess enough dope to reasonably be considered a "dealer" before reaching felony status.
 

Bill Lins

Moderating Staff
Staff Member
are you saying that homosexuals shouldn't be allowed into lodge? aka, cannot be "good men" because they are gay?

As I stated before, the following is a quote from Wikipedia:

"Until recent times, a man engaged in homosexual behavior was considered to be engaging in 'criminal behavior involving moral turpitude'"
 

ndfire83

Registered User
I'm confused. Your original post says "charged" with a felony. That's not the same as convicted. If they are only charged then they should wait until their legal issues have run their course.

The guy that might petition our Lodge has been convicted and has served his time, as far as I know. I don't know what the crime was, I am under the impression it has to do with drugs. I was just looking to see if anyone else has run into an issue like this and was looking to see what other Brother's though about it. I need to look into the code for ND. The other problem I run into is the Master of our Lodge has told me that ifthis guy petitions he will be accepted, and if I vote it down, they will vote again, when I am unable to come to the meeting. But that could be an altogether new topic.
 

ndfire83

Registered User
One other thing that was brought up in our Lodge, was that we are not looking at who the man was in the past, we are to look to the future. I think that is right but if they have a history of being in trouble who is to say they will not do it again? I know people can change, but we are supposed to make GOOD men Better. NOT bad men good. That is not to say that all people who have broken the law are bad, but in the case of a felony I am unsure where they would fall in?
 

Dragon

Registered User
I would suggest that you find out MORE information before you automatically ballot against this man. Find out what the situation was, it could have been a stupid mistake that was made 10, 15, or even 20 years ago. Find out what kind of man he is NOW, if you do not know all of the circumstances behind the charge and conviction, it is possible you are jumping to conclusions with regard to the mans character as he lives NOW.
 

Traveling Man

Premium Member
Here is a description of moral turpitude as defined by the U.S. Department of State…
United States Department of State courtesy of the Plano Masonic Lodge

I find it interesting that the above is an older version and includes moral turpitude clauses (and explanations) while the an intermediate version includes “job descriptions” and the newest version only includes drug/terrorist clauses (deleting any association with the moral turpitude,communist parties etc.) In the future (after the legalisation of drugs and we all live in utopia) we wont need any of these regulations, correct?
 
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MGM357

Registered User
that's slightly ambiguous. i feel like if someone is doing pot and gets a felony, it's not something that should kick him out of masonry.

I know the argument is smoking pot isn't any worse than drinking, maybe so, but it is an ILLEGAL drug. What will it be like when the next generation decide? Do think maybe the weekend crack smoker will be alowed in? The West gate is heavily guarded for a reason. We are to only allow the ones that duly and truly prepare, worthy and well qualified. Masonry is only as good as the men that are in it. Sometimes I wonder if we make it easier for a man to get in, than for a brother who has been away for a while, to come back in.
 

CarlGlas

Registered User
Art. 397 of the Laws of The Grand Lodge of Texas specifically states that a candidate must have a firm belief in the existence of God, and Art. 398 states that before a candidate can be initiated he must state in writing that he seriously declares, upon his honor, that he firmly believes in the existence of God.

In my opinion that pretty much says that if you don't believe in God, you can't be initiated and if you aren't initiated, you can't be a Mason.

I think it would be nice if the Grand Lodge would make a ruling on the subject of felony charges and be clear about it. Being charged is one thing, being convicted is another.


Our petitions in ND ask if you beleive in a Supreme Being/Deity. If you answer NO that is an automatin disqualifcation. it dosen't say that if you put no you can't become a member but we know that is the case. So, why would the petition have to say if you answer a question this way you can't be a member. If it said that they would say what they had to.
 

CarlGlas

Registered User
Even though a Supreme Court decision stated Homosexual Conduct could not be made illegal based on the US Constitution, in Texas, Homosexual conduct is still listed in the Penal Code as a criminal offense. And, assuming that one accepts the Bible to be the Word of God, and as such the final authority on issues it discusses, Homosexual conduct is "an abomination" to the Lord! Together with "bestiality" it was one of the sins that justified God in giving the land of Canaan to the Israelites, for the previous occupants were guilty of such sins.

Art. 393. Qualifications.
A candidate for the degrees of Masonry must be free-born, sound in mind, of good moral character.
 

ndfire83

Registered User
I would suggest that you find out MORE information before you automatically ballot against this man. Find out what the situation was, it could have been a stupid mistake that was made 10, 15, or even 20 years ago. Find out what kind of man he is NOW, if you do not know all of the circumstances behind the charge and conviction, it is possible you are jumping to conclusions with regard to the mans character as he lives NOW.

That is why we have investigation committees. Is to make sure of these things. My biggest worry is if there are rules against it. I tend to agree with MGM357, if we start getting to relaxed with membership now, what will it be like in the future? Also, it is not my place to judge this man. But, if he has a long criminal history,than I feel like I have good reason to be stand-offish about him. I am a big believe that this IS the greatest Fraternity know to man and I don't what, because of me not looking deep enough into a subject, that I jeopardize that. Some might think that it is just one man, but one man can to great or terrible things. I just want to make sure I am as educated as I can be to make a good informed decision about a potential candidate.
 
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