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WV GL withdraws recognition of OH GL

Raymond Walters

Premium Member
Thank you Bro. Raymond Sean Walters for that information. I had the feeling after all "the guilding the lily" that somehow the truth would come out.

This whole situation hinges on "EQUALITY", that which we Masons hold dear. For some strange reason, there are many in our fraternity who feel that "certain" people are not their equals in any way.

In an answer to PGM Haas having to re-take degrees, he was re-obligated, which is at the discretion of any Grand Lodge. The GM in Ohio[MW Bro. Terry Posey] reviewed PGM Haas' petition & explanation regarding his expulsion in WV.
MW Bro. Posey found that no reason existed under Ohio Masonic Code that would prevent Haas from re-obligating/ rejoining Freemasonry.

Add to all of this the fact that WV violated it's own Code in how it expelled PGM Haas should indicate that there isn't much sympathy, and the reason for the expulsion; to perpetuate an elitist class by those individuals who are clearly racist.

I say this because as I AM a member of a "regular" Grand Lodge, why was I denied the ability to visit in 2005, based on nothing more than my physical appearance[PGM Haas spoke out on my behalf]. I was disrespected as a Freemason, my lodge at that time Valley Hi 1407 in San Antonio was disrespected, as was my then grand lodge, the Grand Lodge of Texas AF&AM.

I have NO sympathy for GL- WV. As our illustrious MW Bro. Nelson King wrote, we admit too many who do not meet the minimum qualifications for Masonic membership. Nuff said!!!
 

youngsandy

Registered User
To Bro.Raymond, I am indeed sorry and saddened to read at your treatment what ever happened to "Freemasonry regards the man, not the clothes he wears,nor the house he lives in, or the luxuries with which he surrounds himself."As my Grandad always said(God rest his soul) "never judge a man by the coat he wears." It would also appear some Brethren regard themselves as being more equal than others.ps. nice pic.Heraldic shield of the GLof S.
 

masonicknight

Registered User
This reminds me of the person who has been painting a wood floor and looks up and sees has painted himself into the corner and now has to wait for the floor to dry. The GLoWV has apparently set the paint brush in motion and we now get the opportunity to watch them work. I honestly hope that good sense and wisdom prevail in the near future so that not only is there reconciliation with all parties but also that any damage control will become minimal to the Order at Large. Thank you for the information, I had heard only vaguely what this was but none of the details.
 

TexMass

Registered User
This was in several news papers a while back. It was my understanding that he had proposed Prince Hall recognition and at a GL communication it was voted on by the membership and passed. Several other propositions were also passed that would have helped bring WV from the civil war era to the present. After the new GM was installed he rescinded all of the former GM's changes. Then he proceded to embarrass PGM Haas and expell him. PGM Haas has sued the GL of WV and the court agreed to hear it. The GL of PH has issued a letter of support for PGM Haas. I have not heard anything regarding the case yet.
 

owls84

Moderator
Premium Member
This is what I'm doing..... quite a good show.

homer-eating-popcorn-small-c7873.JPG
 

JTM

"Just in case"
Premium Member
thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you
 

Squire Bentley

Premium Member
Where is it written that one Grand Lodge has to uphold the rulings, restrictions and obligations of another Grand Lodge?

It might be a tradition but it's not a Landmark.
 

Ronald D. Martin

Registered User
Where is it written that one Grand Lodge has to uphold the rulings, restrictions and obligations of another Grand Lodge?

It might be a tradition but it's not a Landmark.

Bro Squire,

I would suggest that if one thinks about it the recognition card is the only way GLs have to maintain some sort of order. In this case there might be many that side with OH but in another case the same people might not agree with that decision. There arguably have to be some sort of rules that Regular GLs abide by between themselves or Masonry has a chance, with time, to morph into something that it wasn't intended to be. GLs certainly have their own independence but how else would one maintain some sort of boundaries of what it means to be Regular Masons without rules. Now, in this case I still haven't seen a rush from other GLs to pull recognition from OH. Cooler heads do seem to eventually prevail. It wasn't that many years ago that California pulled recognition from NJ for making Danny Thomas a Mason when his permanent address was in CA. They managed to work through that in short order:)
 

Raymond Walters

Premium Member
I would think it is like any other system that has rules and laws.

The point you have missed through all these conversations/ postings is that the GL-WV chose to violate it's own masonic code for it's jurisdiction in it's mistreatment of PGM Frank Haas, due primarily to racism, which has no place in Freemasonry, and never did.

I do wish you unknowledgeable brothers would wake up, become familiar with ALL rules/ codes of Freemasonry, not just he one's you choose to follow or educate yourselves about.

No one is saying that GL's have to follow other rules, but there is such a thing as common courtesy & brotherly love which we masons are supposed to show toward one another. PGM Haas didn't get shown any by the way he was mistreated for doing what was morally correct. I didn't get shown any due to my physical appearance, which itself is considered un-masonic.

PGM Haas spoke out and took action, as a GM should when injustice towards Freemasons in his jurisdiction happens!!!

If you cannot see the problem, then perhaps you should find another organization that allows for mistreatment of people, like the KKK, skinheads or some other domestic terrorist organization.
 
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Jamesb

Registered User
Wow!
I really like the generalized statements which lumps us all into catagories. This is a tough time as we transition from one generation to another. But lumping us (I do wish you unknowledgeable brothers would wake up, become familiar with ALL rules/ codes of Freemasonry, not just he one's you choose to follow or educate yourselves about. ) (If you cannot see the problem, then perhaps you should find another organization that allows for mistreatment of people, like the KKK, skinheads or some other domestic terrorist organization.) into groups like this as we (the next generation) try to move the problem out of the shadows is frankly unproductive.
 
H

Huw

Guest
I see that you are very angry, Bro. Walters. That's understandable, there's potential for anger over several aspects of the Haas case. So far as I can discern the facts from a distance (which is obviously likely to be incomplete knowledge), Bro. Haas does appear to be a man of goodwill who tried to do what is right, and does appear to have been treated remarkably harshly.

Nevertheless, please restrain yourself. Inviting any Brother who doesn't see this issue your way to go join the KKK is a pretty intemperate remark!

I contributed to the earlier discussion in this thread, so perhaps you intended to include me in this "invitation". If so, I decline and take some offence.

Whether I can "see the problem" depends on what you mean. You assert that GLoWV has broken its own rules ... I've never read the GLoWV rulebook so I can't be sure about that, but I agree that their actions (and in particular the apparent denial of due process to Bro. Haas) look pretty strange by any usual masonic rules. You call upon us, whom you insultingly describe as unknowledgeable, to familiarise ourselves with "ALL rules" everywhere, but that's an absurd demand: we'd have to be full-time specialists to know every detail of every GL's rules, there are hundreds of GLs and each one has hundreds of rules and hundreds of edicts and hundreds of case-law interpretations, so it's all an ordinary Brother can manage to be approximately familiar with the general tenor of rules within his own jurisdiction. What exactly is the "problem" which you condemn us if we "cannot see"? Most of us here are not members of GLoWV, so what are you expecting us actually to do about this problem?

If there has been misconduct in GLoWV, then it should be addressed by members of GLoWV: they're a sovereign body and the rest of us have no say in their affairs. The only external course of action which can address the specific details of Bro. Haas's treatment is for him to ask the civil courts to intervene and strike down the GLoWV actions as illegal ... and Bro. Haas has already set that in motion, and it doesn't involve the rest of us. All any other GL can do overtly is to wave the blunt instrument of de-recognition - are you calling upon other GLs to withdraw recognition from GLoWV? Even if you are, then that's a matter for GMs and their advisors to consider, not something which ordinary Brethren have much say about.

Suppose, then, that we in other GLs do threaten de-recognition, as perhaps you want us to do. Consider what we'd be saying: we'd be demanding that outsiders be allowed to micro-manage GLoWV's internal affairs right down to the level of dictating a particular procedure and even a particular outcome in a specific disciplinary case. If outsiders were allowed to dictate such internal proceedings in such detail, then GLoWV clearly would no longer be a sovereign body, and therefore couldn't qualify as a regular GL! So we'd effectively be demanding that GLoWV do something definitely irregular in order to rectify something allegedly irregular! We'd be putting them in an impossible position, because if they acceded to our demands then we wouldn't be able to re-recognise them afterwards for lack of sovereignty. This is not what the recognition system is intended to be used for, it'd be an abuse of process by the rest of us. We could only follow that path if it were the intention to cast GLoWV into the outer darkness permanently: it'd be a nuclear option, an attempt to destroy GLoWV altogether, not a means of rectifying one awkward situation. Recognising this potential, many GLs would loudly refuse to join a general de-recognition, and GLoWV would refuse to comply with the demands of those which de-recognised them, and we'd quite likely end up thereby with an insoluble deadlock and a permanent schism in masonry.

What can be done, although not overtly, is to bring a certain amount of wise counsel and diplomatic pressure from other GLs, but that doesn't involve us ordinary Brethren and can't be conducted in public. I dare say it's already happening behind the scenes, but ranting about the situation in public forums probably doesn't help efforts at quiet diplomacy.

T & F,

Huw
 

Ronald D. Martin

Registered User
If you cannot see the problem, then perhaps you should find another organization that allows for mistreatment of people, like the KKK, skinheads or some other domestic terrorist organization.

One might first wish to consider taking the log out of thier own eye, so that they might see clearly when attempting to take out the speck that is in their brother’s eye. Hate and anger are color blind and they certainly don't do anything for someone's reasoning abilities. I forgive you for these statements - maybe you should ponder forgiving your self.
 

Raymond Walters

Premium Member
Dear Brethren,

All of you have raised valid points with your comments, and my intent was not to cast such a wide brush with my comments. I will comment further on this; I AM beyond tired of hearing comments that seemingly overlook conduct that denigrates our fraternal organization. Other Masonic writers have commented about the lack of effective leadership in this illustrious fraternity we all belong to, and in my masonic journey I can concur with those comments from the other writers.

We were first instructed to "subdue our passions", yet for many, not all, that transition has never taken place. If one is to become a "better" man, then a transition should take place. Yes I understand that transition will come about differently for all persons, but it should happen at some time. Because this transition hasn't happened with many grand lodge officers in West Virginia, part of the fraternal bonds we cherish are not coming about to help better ALL masons in West Virginia.

My example is this; there are several students at Bethany College in Bethany, West Virginia, [my son Austin included] who are all "regular"/mainstream masons. All of these masons happen to be African/ African-American, and are being denied the ability to visit/ attend lodge with other "regular"/mainstream masons here in West Virginia.
These masons spend time coming to my home just to get some semblance of what could be called fellowship. We spend time talking, discussing masonic related subjects, philosophy, and occassionally, discuss ritualistic work and it's symbolic meanings. I have been happy to share what I have been taught, and to get to know these younger masons.

So when my comments are read and I sound as if I am complaining, please know that I have suffered mistreatment for over 20 years by other so-called "regular" Freemasons for none other reason than my physical appearance. I used to correspond with Bro. Allen Roberts of Virginia concerning the situation in America, and please know that this situation IS an American problem, he would reassure me that someday things will get better. I do agree, they will get better, but WE must stop sitting on the fencepost. In looking at these younger masons, who are the future of our fraternity, I can only hope that they will be able to help correct the current situations from ever taking place again.

There is no rule in Freemasonry that prevents us from espousing an opinion, so it is difficult for me to understand those who choose to play "devils" advocate. Playing advocate for evil/ injustice should not be anyone's approach. We, as Freemasons are considered to be an enlightened bunch, and certainly not be part of the in crowd or do what is expedient/ politically correct.
WE ARE BETTER THAN THAT IF WE SIMPLY ALLOW OURSELVES TO BE!!!

In closing, I joined an organization whose principles I grew to admire & respect. I had many examples in my own family and community of upstanding men who all happened to be Freemasons. We have the ability to effect positive change within ourselves and families, as well as the community/ society around us. If we do not lead they way, who will???

Fraternally,
 

owls84

Moderator
Premium Member
One thing you need to understand is that this is a Masonic FORUM. The purpose of this forum is discussion. Without opposition there is no discussion. From time to time I will "play devil’s advocate" just to spur discussion. Without it this site would not have any members and would have died a long time ago. However, we are ALL supposed to remain on the level and respect for one another should always be first and for most during all topics no matter how much you agree or disagree with one another.

You are very knowledgeable on this topic and have given a large sum of us some very good information on the happenings but this is not the first time something like this has happened and I am sure there will be more. However since you are on "the front line" of this issue your input is greatly appreciated.

The thing I keep in mind is that Masonry is not to blame but the Mason who has not taken the time to learn the teachings that Masonry has to offer. Also, please remember just because someone says something on here don't believe that is their actual viewpoint.
 
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Squire Bentley

Premium Member
Suppose, then, that we in other GLs do threaten de-recognition, as perhaps you want us to do. Consider what we'd be saying: we'd be demanding that outsiders be allowed to micro-manage GLoWV's internal affairs right down to the level of dictating a particular procedure and even a particular outcome in a specific disciplinary case. If outsiders were allowed to dictate such internal proceedings in such detail, then GLoWV clearly would no longer be a sovereign body, and therefore couldn't qualify as a regular GL! So we'd effectively be demanding that GLoWV do something definitely irregular in order to rectify something allegedly irregular! We'd be putting them in an impossible position, because if they acceded to our demands then we wouldn't be able to re-recognise them afterwards for lack of sovereignty. This is not what the recognition system is intended to be used for, it'd be an abuse of process by the rest of us. We could only follow that path if it were the intention to cast GLoWV into the outer darkness permanently: it'd be a nuclear option, an attempt to destroy GLoWV altogether, not a means of rectifying one awkward situation. Recognising this potential, many GLs would loudly refuse to join a general de-recognition, and GLoWV would refuse to comply with the demands of those which de-recognised them, and we'd quite likely end up thereby with an insoluble deadlock and a permanent schism in masonry.

So when the Grand Lodge of Minnesota recognized the Grand Lodge of France and many other American GLs started pulling recognition, you were on the side of the GL of Minnesota, right?

And when the Gl of Washington State- Upton - recognized Prince Hall in 1898 and many other American GLs pulled recognition you would say those pulled recognitions were wrong, right?

There has to be some sort of national agreement of what Freemasonry consists . We have such disparity between American Grand Lodges that not only do we confuse the public but we also confuse Freemasons.

American Freemasonry is crying for an American identity. That can happen if state GLs will band together to forge an agreement on common principles without giving up any state sovereignty. Those that refused to particpate the rest could pull recognition from or just refuse to call what they are doing Freemasonry.

Failure of Freemasonry to police itself could result in civil court action or federal government bureaucratic action.. And don't think for a moment that is not a possibility. Most Grand Lodges are civil corporate non profits and subject to non profit and corporate rules which take precedence over Masonic law.

Parts of American Freemasonry thumbing its nose at civil rights, human rights and certain lifestyles could create a giant headache for the entire Craft. And what one jurisdiction does reflects on us all. The public - and future candidates - do not distinguish between West Virginia Freemasonry and California Freemasonry. To them it's all the same - Freemasonry is Freemasonry.

But we know it isn't. It should be but it isn't. Lincoln told us that a house divided cannot stand. Freemasonry divided cannot stand. Those that say one jurisdiction doesn't mess with the affairs of another jurisdiction are the same Brothers who say - "but we always did it this way." If you cannot work outside the box then you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem.
 
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