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Attending Church Inquiry

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Heirophant

Registered User
Hi Brothers,

I was sitting with a few brethren in my lodge and the discussion of 'attending church' came up over an experience one of us had while visiting a hospital recently.

We had a laugh when Bill (a member of our lodge) spoke to us about how some random stranger walked past him and accused him of being a 'devil worshipper' (because he was wearing our Lodge Belt Buckle with a 'square & compass' ), the conversation turned into a conversation regarding 'knowledge' and 'wisdom' and...."going to church".

Bill ended the converstation with a snide remark about attending church. Something to the affect of..." well not everyone here attends church so I should be a 'good christian' and stop talking bad about other people" (knowing good and well I was the only one there whom doesn't attend church service of any sort).


I may not attend 'church' (due to past negative experiences) but since when is 'attending church' a requirement for 'mutual respect' amongst Masons?
 
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Michaelstedman81

Premium Member
I never have heard of that. In fact, I still haven't met a Brother that has acted like that when it came to those that went to church or not. If attending church services was a requirement to gain mutual respect from other Masons, what is the point of calling it a "brotherhood"? Especially with a lot of the values and morals that Masonry teaches us about ourselves and other people around us.

The way I look at it when it comes to this other guy is the whole "to each his own". There are times in my life when I avoided church because of people like that in the church. It is even more crappy that you are trying to attend church and do the same thing everyone else is there doing, but you are an outcast of some sort because you came from a different church or even just from a different city!!! There have been a couple of churches that I have attended, though, that were absolutely great. They didn't care where you came from or if it was your first time and you were just testing the waters. They wanted to rejoice and worship with you. If you picked up with it, great, if not. Oh well. They were still there for you.

There are always going to be those folks that for some reason think they are better than someone else because of something. It sucks that a Brother of our same teachings can't help but let that feeling get the better of him and let himself make an insulting comment about another Brother.

Then again, with no finger pointing at you, maybe you misunderstood him or maybe he was joking and you didn't pick up on the humor? Either way, you have the right outlook on it from my perspective and that you don't need to be attending service to have mutual respect from other Masons. Just be the better Mason and let it slide right off and keep going with your direction :)
 

JohnnyFlotsam

Premium Member
Hi Brothers,

Bill ended the converstation with a snide remark about attending church. Something to the affect of..." well not everyone here attends church so I should be a 'good christian' and stop talking bad about other people" (knowing good and well I was the only one there whom doesn't attend church service of any sort).


I may not attend 'church' (due to past negative experiences) but since when is 'attending church' a requirement for 'mutual respect' amongst Masons?

It is not. It is a sad fact that not every one of our Brethren understands enough about the Craft to understand even this.
I mean, setting aside the obvious point that not every Brother is a Christian or will have a religion that involves "church", the way any given Brother practices his devotions to deity is none of our business.
 

fairmanjd

Registered User
I may have to respectfully disagree and play a little bit of the devil's advocate here. During my petitioning and investigation, I was asked how active I am in my church and how often I attend. That being said, I was also told, "We don't care which plane you take; but it is important you be at the airport."... meaning, of course, that its not important what particular religion a brother is; but he should follow one and be active in it. I tend to agree with this.
 

JohnnyFlotsam

Premium Member
I may have to respectfully disagree and play a little bit of the devil's advocate here. During my petitioning and investigation, I was asked how active I am in my church and how often I attend. That being said, I was also told, "We don't care which plane you take; but it is important you be at the airport."... meaning, of course, that its not important what particular religion a brother is; but he should follow one and be active in it. I tend to agree with this.

I agree, with most of this. One of the EA's working tools stresses the importance of regular devotions to deity, so the importance of that portion of our daily activities should be clear, but IMO, asking a candidate about his church activity is out of line. Hardly surprising, but definitely venturing into an area that should be between a candidate/Brother and his deity. Asking about "church" betrays a marked prejudice toward those religions that congregate every Sunday.
 

Zack

Registered User
I agree, with most of this. One of the EA's working tools stresses the importance of regular devotions to deity, so the importance of that portion of our daily activities should be clear, but IMO, asking a candidate about his church activity is out of line. Hardly surprising, but definitely venturing into an area that should be between a candidate/Brother and his deity. Asking about "church" betrays a marked prejudice toward those religions that congregate every Sunday.

For me, a "church" is not necessary for my time spent in devotion to my Deity.
Had I been asked about church attendance I would have told them to MYOB and given back the petition.
 

fairmanjd

Registered User
Keep in mind my lodge is in the buckle of the Bible Belt... If I had told them I practiced Bhuddism or Shintoism, it wouldn't have been a problem. Its just the fact the main religion practiced in the community wherein the lodge is located happens to be Christianity. If I was petitioning in Saudi Arabia, I wouldn't be shocked or appalled i I were asked how often I attend prayer or mosque.
 

jwhoff

Premium Member
Every man's church can only be attended within his heart. One who attends any specific Sunday-Go-2-Meeting franchise may be present and not attend his church at any given service. Or he may. The point is, physical surroundings are not required for one to be in touch with his maker. Reflect upon your last close encounter with eternity. Could you ever have been closer to your maker in a physical building? Could you have thanked him (or her) any more for deliverance?

All said, one should not down-play organized religion. It is a necessity of civilization. It can and most often does great work for humanity. However, like the double edged sword, organized religion can be very dangerous in the hands of the power hungry. There is vast casum between leadership and control.
 

Beathard

Premium Member
I believe that church in the original connotation was the fellowship of believers. It was not tied to a building or place. I have fellowship with people that have the same beliefs as me all of the time, therefore I am always in church, but rarely in a bureaucratic building.

Johnstone provides the following seven characteristics of churches:
1) claim universality, include all members of the society within their ranks, and have a strong tendency to equate "citizenship" with "membership"
2) exercise religious monopoly and try to eliminate religious competition
3) are very closely allied with the state and secular powers–frequently there is overlapping of responsibilities and much mutual reinforcement
4) are extensively organized as a hierarchical bureaucratic institution with a complex division of labor
5) employ professional, full-time clergy who possess the appropriate credentials of education and formal ordination
6) primarily gain new members through natural reproduction and the socialization of children into the ranks
7) allow for diversity by creating different groups within the church (e.g., orders of nuns or monks) rather than through the formation of new religions

I have problems with points 1-4. I also believe diversity (point 7) should be extended to living peacefully within a population that includes people of other religions, but that would be a problem with the churches usual goal of eliminating other faiths (point 2).

Sorry for the long rambling, but I feel it is important for masons to be religious men. I do not believe that all masons should be required to fit themselves into a bureaucratic organization called a church.

BTW, even with these beliefs I am a registered member of the Methodist Church.

I have never felt closer to my maker than my daughter's baptism in a Methodist Church, touring a small chapel in Sienna Italy, and watching a leopard cross the road in Namibia. The Grand Architect can be found in many places.
 
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jhodgdon

Registered User
jwhoff said:
Every man's church can only be attended within his heart. One who attends any specific Sunday-Go-2-Meeting franchise may be present and not attend his church at any given service. Or he may. The point is, physical surroundings are not required for one to be in touch with his maker. Reflect upon your last close encounter with eternity. Could you ever have been closer to your maker in a physical building? Could you have thanked him (or her) any more for deliverance?

All said, one should not down-play organized religion. It is a necessity of civilization. It can and most often does great work for humanity. However, like the double edged sword, organized religion can be very dangerous in the hands of the power hungry. There is vast casum between leadership and control.

Couldn't agree more. I think each individual's personal relationship with the Great Architect is far more important than how often he attends church; to sit and listen to another man's own personal interpretation of God's divine will may not have any bearing on another's situation or circumstance.
As it relates to Masonry, it is ridiculous to hear that someone copped an attitude about a Brother who didn't attend church. Masonry should be the putting away of petty differences in search of a Brotherhood free from the disharmony caused by such minor opinion diversity. Maybe we're just crazy out here 
 

S.Courtemanche

Premium Member
Every man's church can only be attended within his heart. One who attends any specific Sunday-Go-2-Meeting franchise may be present and not attend his church at any given service. Or he may. The point is, physical surroundings are not required for one to be in touch with his maker. Reflect upon your last close encounter with eternity. Could you ever have been closer to your maker in a physical building? Could you have thanked him (or her) any more for deliverance?

All said, one should not down-play organized religion. It is a necessity of civilization. It can and most often does great work for humanity. However, like the double edged sword, organized religion can be very dangerous in the hands of the power hungry. There is vast casum between leadership and control.

Jwhoff, I could not have said this any better (o:
 

tom268

Registered User
that its not important what particular religion a brother is; but he should follow one and be active in it. I tend to agree with this.
It was already said, that the brotherhood includes men from many religions. Not all of them know something like regular church services. Also, you cannot determine a man's devotion by looking at his church schedule. A man, who is bored to death in a church, but still attends to avoid stress with his wife, or who needs to get a good reputation in his neighborhood, has not much of a faith.

Even in my jurisdiction, which followes a strictly christian way of masonry, we do not ask about church, just about the faith of the candidate. Today, there are so many forms of christian spirituality, that does not follow church service, but private bible studies, christian meditation groups, home circles and so on, who may decide what is active faith and what is not?
 

wwinger

Registered User
"We don't care which plane you take; but it is important you be at the airport."

I suppose that using the word "church" could be offensive to a very small minority of Texans, however, I do believe that the investigation should delve into the petitioner's religious beliefs, to see that he does truly have belief and faith in the Diety. It is also an interesting exercise in religious tolerance to lead a person into discussing things that you yourself might disagree with.
 

JohnnyFlotsam

Premium Member
So the candidate has answered in the affirmative the required questions about his belief in Deity. What, exactly would be the point of further inquiry into the nature of his faith?
 

wwinger

Registered User
What, exactly would be the point of further inquiry into the nature of his faith?
In the case of one petitioner, his concept of Deity was based on a belief that trees were his 'God'. Yet the question relating to Deity on the petition was answered, 'Yes'.

In another case, the petitioner left blank the question relating to Deity. This was not noticed until the petition was read in the lodge whereupon it was immediately referred back to the petitioner for completion. He of course answered the question, 'Yes'.

I firmly believe the investigators have a duty to inquire about a petitioner's beliefs. Granted they should do so in a manner that exhibits tolerance and should not be biased by their own beliefs. A man desirous of becoming a Mason will not be offended by objective inquiry. He should be proud to tell us about his faith and beliefs.

It is the duty of the investigator to look behind the questions and answers and make sure that the petitioner is someone we want as a brother, not just that he answered all the questions in the affirmative.
 
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