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Time Limits

Should there be time limits for turning in your proficiency work?

  • Yes

    Votes: 20 43.5%
  • No

    Votes: 26 56.5%

  • Total voters
    46

Beathard

Premium Member
What about the EA that is doing his best to learn the work, but can't due to a learning disability? I have a student who has an auditory processing disorder. I don't believe he will ever be able to get past the exam, but he is very active in our fundraising and charity work. He would make a very good, non-esoteric mason. Do we make allowances for people like this?
 

Dave in Waco

Premium Member
What about the EA that is doing his best to learn the work, but can't due to a learning disability? I have a student who has an auditory processing disorder. I don't believe he will ever be able to get past the exam, but he is very active in our fundraising and charity work. He would make a very good, non-esoteric mason. Do we make allowances for people like this?

I think that is why it is left up to the lodge on approving his work to advance versus the DI or CoW. I think the lodge will recognize that he has a learning disability and grade any work he turns in accordingly, especially considering that he has been quite active in the lodge. Perfect memorization of the work doesn't make a man a better Mason. We each turn it in and are graded according to our gifts.

As for the EA you mentioned, I would say that is a challenge for not only the EA but his instructor to overcome. He may try lipreading or visual signs to help in his work. But I have found that when a brother like this EA comes along, the lodge will do what they need to do to help him in any and every way they can. I know in my lodge we have a brother who has a speech problem. But there isn't a sole in the lodge that won't give him all the time he needs to get any oral work he has out. He knows the work and is very active in the lodge. And because of the brothers in the lodge getting behind him and giving him encouragement, he also earned a C certificate this year. And I dare say his C means more then any A or Lifetime Certificate in the lodge.
 

JJones

Moderator
I know some people who have taken too long for their proficiency and haven't come back when they were finally able to again because they didn't want to go through the EA degree again.

Why should they have to anyhow? They can be taught everything they forgot and be reminded of their obligations without having to go through the ritual again.
 

relapse98

Registered User
I think that is why it is left up to the lodge on approving his work to advance versus the DI or CoW. I think the lodge will recognize that he has a learning disability and grade any work he turns in accordingly, especially considering that he has been quite active in the lodge. Perfect memorization of the work doesn't make a man a better Mason. We each turn it in and are graded according to our gifts.

This popped up today because of JJones reply to it.

Dave, thank you for this answer, I personally needed that. I need to learn to realize that not all brothers are physically (seems the older gentlemen have a harder time learning the work) of learning the work approaching 100%. If a man does his best, what more can we ask of him.
 

Bill Lins

Moderating Staff
Staff Member
I know some people who have taken too long for their proficiency and haven't come back when they were finally able to again because they didn't want to go through the EA degree again.

Why should they have to anyhow? They can be taught everything they forgot and be reminded of their obligations without having to go through the ritual again.

I've never heard of a man having to be initiated more than once. They can be gone as long as they want to be, turn in the work of their last degree, petition the Lodge for advancement, and then advance.
 

Bigmel

Premium Member
Premium Member
That's the way I read the Law Book Bro Lins. There are rules they have to follow. But receiving the degrees again is not one of them.
 

JJones

Moderator
That's very new information to me! I was always under the impression you had to undergo the degree again if you took too long to turn in your proficiency.

I always thought that was sort of the 'penalty' (for lack of a better word) for exceeding the time limit. If that's not the case then what are the repercussions for taking too long?
 

jwhoff

Premium Member
The penalty can come from the lack of support (hence being stopped) by the lodge when it votes against advancement.
 

nwendele

Registered User
I always thought that was sort of the 'penalty' (for lack of a better word) for exceeding the time limit. If that's not the case then what are the repercussions for taking too long?


In Texas, you must petition for advancement. I did this just months ago. I was very active right after my initiation, but due to a promotion, I got too busy at work to practice my memory work. I also have a wife and young twin daughters that keep me busy. My brothers knew what was going on, and were very supportive. I made lodge once a month, but not often enough to get my memory done. As soon as I was able to hire some help, I was again at the lodge weekly. I was ready to turn in, but it had been 14 months. I did my proficiency, afterward, the Secretary gave me my original petition (for reference), and a blank petition for advancement. I filled it out, and it was voted on the next meeting. Then I was passed to Fellowcraft, and I will be raised the 30th of this month.

There are a few of us who take more than 1 year to pass EA who continue our Masonic journey!
 
Last edited:

David Duke

Premium Member
JJones said:
That's very new information to me! I was always under the impression you had to undergo the degree again if you took too long to turn in your proficiency.

I always thought that was sort of the 'penalty' (for lack of a better word) for exceeding the time limit. If that's not the case then what are the repercussions for taking too long?

Our goal is to help a fellow brother, "life happens" sometimes a persons situation changes and he doesn't have the time necessary to learn the work why would you want to penalize him? Besides a second go at the same degree wouldn't be a penalty and would serve no purpose. Now if the brother is found to have moral or legal issues during the investigation it can be taken care of with the ballot.
 

jwhoff

Premium Member
I must rewind my comments. Yes, no one should ever be stopped for delays in completing their work. The nay votes for moral or legal issues are more likely to be acted upon should a vote become necessary for advancement. All too many times such considerations are not looked at seriously otherwise.

Again, one should think long and hard before casting a nay vote on advancement due only to time limits. We are here to help one another.
 

Michaelstedman81

Premium Member
I am more in the middle of yes and no on this one the way the question is proposed. I did vote yes that there should be some time limits. However, my vote for yes is probably not for the same reasons as most others are talking about when it comes to time limits. What I mean is, instead of having a maximum amount of time to turn in the work and move up to the next degree, what about having a minimum amount of time a person should serve at that degree before being allowed to turn in the work and moving up? Lol, hear me out first.

I have been doing some reading that a long time ago they would make the apprentices serve under the masters for a long period of time learning the craft. I have read that sometimes it would be just one year, but I have also read some other sources that would say that they would serve about seven years. Then, once they reach that next degree they would serve in that level learning that part of the trade for a good while and if were proficient at it, they could move up again after another required time. Now, I know that was back in the "operative" days and we are all "speculative", so I am not saying that an EA needs to wait seven years...lol

Now, I do totally agree that if we were to say that a man has to serve as an EA for a year before he can become an FC, and then stay an FC for a year before becoming a MM would cause the numbers in membership and active members to dwindle. But to paraphrase what someone else said in this forum "quality to quantity". I pick quality. Every man learns his own way, and some take longer than others. I agree with what a lot of everyone on here that there is so much to learn and with the system that we have in place tends to make us want to race to become a Master Mason. If the time limits were turned around, there wouldn't be that rush cause the candidates would know that they have to serve a minimum amount of time before they can achieve that goal. Yea sure, we all know that it hardly ever takes anyone the full year to learn the proficiency work, but what all are they learning before they turn it in really? Other than the Q's and A's, what deeper stuff are they learning about themsleves, the Craft, and that internal temple we are trying to build?

In summary, I did vote yes that there should be some time limits, but not in the manner that we use them today. Have someone serve a minimum amount of time and at the end of the time, turn in the the proficiency. There very well could be less nervousness and jitteryness when they are being tested, and plus, I'm sure they could learn more about things during that time than just what is required for the proficiency.

As always, just my own little opinion. Plus, I think how things were done a long time ago was really cool...lol
 

dreamer

Registered User
There are Pros and Cons to time limits, but there should be some reasonable amount of time in completing the degrees. Yes, there are exceptions where some Brothers may need more time, but 20 years! What bothers me is that these Brothers may be taking a while to complete their degrees have legitimate reasons, however, the Brother who is sitting idle (not coming to meetings, not studying, etc.) has no reason for taking a long time. If they need so much time, what are they studying and how do we know if they are learning if you do not see them around. Most importantly, we need to stop making excuses in Masonry and realize that there will always be those that come along and then disappear no matter what degree they have. We must make sure that we have a viable education committee in place to immediately begin the education for the candidate/Brother (easier said than done), but it must happen, or else we stand to lose good Brothers. And we need follow up on all Brothers with their education so we can advance them is a reasonable amount of time.

In Arizona there is a elapsed time of two years(failure to advance) between degrees (exceptions as always) but it is a reasonable amount of time if one is committed. Of course it becomes harder when a military person is PCS'ed or deployed.

There is a person where I live who is a 20 year EA and has no desire to return. Some Lodge lost him and how many other Lodges will lose Brothers like this?
 

jvarnell

Premium Member
Why would anyone want to stay an EA? they cant vote, cant be on committees and as you said dont pay dues (in Texas). They can stay an EA forever today, but after 1 year they have to re-petition to advance and shouldnt be allowed into the lodge after the year is expired.

Ive never seen an active EA that took even close to a year to finish and move up to FC. Keyword there is ACTIVE. We have enough members already.

I don't want to stay a EA but I am slow with this process. SOme will be fast and some will be slow. I am going to do the EA in less time than aloted but was told all that had to happen if I did not was the lodge vote for mor time. Some times life happens and one part or another of the gage is not able to be used.
 

dreamer

Registered User
I don't want to stay a EA but I am slow with this process. SOme will be fast and some will be slow. I am going to do the EA in less time than aloted but was told all that had to happen if I did not was the lodge vote for mor time. Some times life happens and one part or another of the gage is not able to be used.

Does your jurisdiction allow for "Minimum Proficiency," steps, due guards, signs, grips and words rather than the catechism?
 

dfreybur

Premium Member
I favor time limits but in years rather than months. Give a brother plenty of time but be able to drop them from the books after a few years if they drop out.

I am uncomfortable with a rule that requires a proficiency be delivered in a few months. I think the reason is to keep brothers moving through their work. I would like to see the aging data before and after the rule was passed - Data rules to this engineer.
 
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