My Freemasonry | Freemason Information and Discussion Forum

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Dressing Down And Blimping Up -- A Reflection of Freemasonry

Bro_Vick

Moderator
Premium Member
We have had a couple of heated discussions on this board regarding the lack of formal wear, or heck normal wear in a lodge building. WM wearing shorts and flip-flops at a stated meeting, etc. The tired old argument of "It is the internal, not the external..." is used a catch phrase as common as "whateva, whateva, I do what I want!"

Article from Forbes on the Dressing Down and Blimping Up of America

So I have a couple questions for the members here. Is the lack of formal wear within the fraternity a by-product of laziness within the craft or is it second order effects from a society that has taken up being "casual" as some delusional form of "Freedom of Speech"?

Can't say both as that is too easy, while both are involved, which of it is a major contributor to it?

S&F,
-Bro Vick
 

Cigarzan

Premium Member
*The following is a statement of personal opinion and in no way is intended to disparage differing thoughts*

This is Texas. In view of that enlightening statement, let me put this forward. Jeans, a nice shirt and proper footwear (boots!) are fine and dandy for lodge. I believe that shows proper decorum. If the Brethren want to wear something nicer they are surely welcome to do it. If the officers want to wear a suit or slacks and a sport coat for installation, more power to 'em. It would be a mistake to require Masons to dress up for lodge. My church doesn't tell me what to wear and neither should my WM. The day I'm required to suit up for lodge will be the day I become one of the guys that you wish you could demit by a vote of the lodge!

So I don't think it's laziness. We Texans are, for the most part, fiercely independent and just ain't nobody, nowhere gonna tell us what to wear! If I was a member of a lodge in one of those high falutin' jurisdictions, I'd prolly feel different about it. I'd have known I gotta be all fancy and take it or leave it!

I will say, however, If a guy shows up in shorts and a tee with flip flops I doubt he'll be well received. Shorts aren't allowed in the courthouse. Against the peace and dignity of that august locale, dontcha know. Dignity and all. There is something to be said for that. And there is such a thing as taking something too far.
 
Last edited:

A7V

Registered User
I spent 10 years in the Navy being told when and how to dress and now that I am out I wouldn't touch a suit with a ten foot pole, reminds me too much of a uniform.

I don't think a regular blue lodge should have a formal dress requirement but a minimum should be stated, that minimum should be middle of the road and not a suit and tie or else. I think most people would agree to no shorts and no flip flops.

I don't have an issue with "special" lodges requiring a suit or tux, something like a traditional observance or research lodge doing it is fine. You have to really want to join those lodges for what they do differently and if you do buying and wearing a suit won't bother you.
 

A7V

Registered User
So I have a couple questions for the members here. Is the lack of formal wear within the fraternity a by-product of laziness within the craft or is it second order effects from a society that has taken up being "casual" as some delusional form of "Freedom of Speech"?

I certainly do not feel that it is any type of laziness in Freemasonry, but more of societal norms moving in this direction. This may be a stretch but I am sure that people in the 1950's who by today's standards were always formally and over dressed would look at the Victorian era much the same way, with the attitude of how could they wear that it looks so uncomfortable etc.

Also, I don't feel it is delusional to think your style of dress is a form of Freedom of Speech. For many dressing casual is a way of trying to break free from the stodgy constraints of corporate America or ideals of the 50's.

I think the overall reason why people don't dress up as much is because we have been told since for decades that the outside isn't what is important and recently we are seeing billionaires and major internet companies that let employees wear anything they want and are highly successful, this only hammers that in to people.

I know in my case that I have full sleeve tattoos and wear long sleeves at work, and usually when people find out I am heavily tattooed they can't believe it because "I work so hard" as if people with tattoos don't work hard. So it is all stereotypes and judgement and hopefully all of it will be broken down.

As you can tell, I don't believe in the "the clothes make the man" nonsense
 
Last edited:

Cigarzan

Premium Member
I spent 10 years in the Navy being told when and how to dress and now that I am out I wouldn't touch a suit with a ten foot pole, reminds me too much of a uniform.
I feel yer pain! I was in the Texas Highway Patrol for 26 years and wore the same clothing and haircut every single day. NO SUIT FOR YOU!!! (Suit Nazi) hahaha
 

JJones

Moderator
I say it's mostly society's fault but laziness plays a role as well. When I go to church and people I've known most of my life look at my suit and ask if I'm supposed to preach, I blame society. When people say suits are too much trouble or say they can't afford one (they can) then I blame laziness.

I know this is Texas and there's a certain pride in our independence, I also know that's not likely to change any time too soon. I'd ask, however, if certain values like that are worth keeping if they're holding us back from taking pride in our appearance or, heaven forbid, attending a lodge due to their dress code.

I had to wear uniforms in the Air Force and I hated it at the time, so I can understand that, but I've grown to really appreciate what a suit can do for a man. This was something older generations understood as well, I've seen pictures of homeless men during the Great Depression that still managed to dress nicer than most folks today.

/rant :6:
 

A7V

Registered User
I know this is Texas and there's a certain pride in our independence, I also know that's not likely to change any time too soon. I'd ask, however, if certain values like that are worth keeping if they're holding us back from taking pride in our appearance or, heaven forbid, attending a lodge due to their dress code.

What makes you think we don't take pride in our appearance because we don't wear a suit? I shave and cut my hair, I wear nice clothes. they aren't stained or ragged.

I had to wear uniforms in the Air Force and I hated it at the time, so I can understand that, but I've grown to really appreciate what a suit can do for a man.

Now this is interesting because I know many good people who distrust a man in a suit. Judgement goes both ways sadly.


There is no end to this argument, I have been around this forum since 2009 and seen countless threads on dress. I almost wish we would put a moratorium on the conversation
 
Last edited:

A7V

Registered User
Brothers,

I don't know why this subject ruffles my feathers so much but I will try to make this my last post on the subject.

If we are supposed to be equals in the lodge including the officers; why does it matter what anyone wears?

If you truly believe that a Brother who has gone through the same process as you to become a Mason and sit in lodge with you as your equal why would you give a second thought to what he wears? The man in the 1000$ suit and the man in thrift store jeans are both our Brothers and deserve the same respect.

Outsiders can't sit in lodge and see how we dress so they can't be the reason we care, a visitor from another lodge shouldn't care because once again he is sitting in a lodge with his Brothers, his equals.

FREEMASONRY is a great equalizer amongst men, princes sit in lodge with trash collecters, with the same authority. Why are we arguing over clothing unless we are worried about being better or lower than our other Brothers and that is not acceptable.
 

Bro_Vick

Moderator
Premium Member
We Texans are, for the most part, fiercely independent and just ain't nobody, nowhere gonna tell us what to wear! If I was a member of a lodge in one of those high falutin' jurisdictions, I'd prolly feel different about it. I'd have known I gotta be all fancy and take it or leave it!

You are being entirely too defensive about this, if you read the article, it talks about a man who showed up in slacks, and a button down shirt to a college graduation where people were wearing bathing suits. His point was that our casual attitude has gone too far, no where did I write that you have to wear a suit (I dare you to point out otherwise). My point is that all the time you see this over casual attitude bleed into Freemasonry and it is excused away (similar in the fashion that you did). Is it being excused away within the craft that putting on a pair of pants and a clean shirt to lodge, is entirely too much to ask. Or do people have respect for the Work but show up and look like they did a day of yard work, or coming in from the pool.

Dressing appropriately for the occasion is lost on Americans (yes, Texas is part of America), period. Showing up to a formal wedding wearing a "You know if your a redneck" shirt and ripped jeans is disrespectful to the host, not a course of freedom of speech, and not a "Texas Thing". The "Its Texas" is a thinly veiled excuse for not having what some would call respect for the event.

We had a black tie event, that was clearly marked black tie, and a few showed up in jeans and a t-shirt, sorry, but that is a lack of respect for the event. There are far more Masonic events that one can show up in a t-shirt and jeans than to a formal event, and when approached we get the "It's the inner not the outer..." When they could of easily not have come.

The Craft has become a victim to the over casual attitude and excuses it away as "It is the inner not the outer...", and lodges that dare to have any type of standard of a dress code you refer to as "high falutin' jurisdictions".

So I will ask again, the over casual attitude in Masonic lodges, is it a product of laziness within the craft or societal norms in a lack of "dressing for an event"?

S&F,
-Bro Vick
 
Last edited:

Cigarzan

Premium Member
Bro. Vick, I think we are agreeing. I had read the article and agree with the point of the author. As I stated in my original post, "there is such a thing as taking something too far." As far as being defensive, I apologize for sounding so. I was having a little fun while responding and my intent was misunderstood, which is entirely my fault.

Maybe my experience is different from what others have seen or heard, but I have never seen anyone come to any lodge I have ever sat in except in acceptable attire. Agreed. No one, especially a WM or his rep should show up to lodge clad in beachwear! Now then...I still ain't wearin' no suits!


Peace and Harmony prevailing (I hope!),

KD
 
Last edited:

chrmc

Registered User
Being from Europe originally, but having lived in Texas for several years, I think a lot of the issue comes down to cultural differences.
Good or bad Texas is not that formal a place. You rarely see people wearing ties, even in business, and dressing up to go out to eat or the theater is not something that is done as much down here compared to some other places in the world.
I think that this reflects over to the attire worn in lodge. If you are generally not used to suiting up, or wearubg a tux for that matter you are less likely to do so.

Personally I like a standard being set for stated, but it should reflect the place and culture. I'm personally in favor for suit and tie for stated meetings, as I think it lends itself to a greater respect and reverence, also but don't mind short and a t-shirt for normal instruction nights.

What I do however think is important is that new brothers are coached when you see them in lodge. If a guy is showing up in a sleeveless shirts and flip flops when the lodge culture is different, have one of the officers pull him aside politely and point out what he may want to wear. Dresscode does not come naturally to many people, so helping is probably appreciated.
 

Bro_Vick

Moderator
Premium Member
If we are supposed to be equals in the lodge including the officers; why does it matter what anyone wears?

You also missed my point, my point wasn't that we should wear tuxs to lodge, my point is that Freemasons are quick to dress down for an event or not bother dressing appropriately at all. If that is the case, is this a reflection of society or is this laziness within the Craft? If a lodge permits their members to wear bathing suits and use a kiddie pool as an alter, that is their lodge culture. It's when there are outside Masonic events or other lodges that have a suit and tie requirement and that lodge shows up in bathing suits, claiming as you just did "If we are suppose to be equals..." and in essence crash the event with complete lack of respect for the host. It has gotten to the point when I hear the "It is the inner not the outter..." in our work I want to role my eyes over it.

If you don't agree with wearing a suit, then simply don't go to those events, it saves everybody some unwanted drama.

Why are we arguing over clothing unless we are worried about being better or lower than our other Brothers and that is not acceptable.

Because as a Mason you should be respectful enough of lodges and events that do have a standard and not show up to those events like you just did yard work, and have respect for your brothers that do have a dress code. Not show up dressed down as a matter of free speech and disrespect the hosts and your brother.

S&F,
-Bro Vick
 

Michaelstedman81

Premium Member
So I have a couple questions for the members here. Is the lack of formal wear within the fraternity a by-product of laziness within the craft or is it second order effects from a society that has taken up being "casual" as some delusional form of "Freedom of Speech"?

Can't say both as that is too easy, while both are involved, which of it is a major contributor to it?

First of all, for some reason the author of that article just annoyed the tar out of me...lol As for my opinion, I don't think really anyone puts on what they choose to wear that day and says to themselves "This is me expressing my right to free speech". But you really can't answer this question without admitting that is is a combination of the laziness in the craft and society both. Like you said, both are involved, but I think looking at things from a "direct or indirect" approach both contribute more.

Indirectly, I think that society contributes more. Whether it is "Freedom of speech", comfort, style, or whatever, society being lazy is the reason we have migrated to attending everything casual. Society has allowed people to start showing up to these kinds of events in less and less "dress to impress" clothes, so now folks are showing up in sandals to a graduation ceremony. People don't care anymore, or at least as much as they should. Though, I really highly doubt that that graduation ceremony was nearly as bad as that author made it sound (he made it sound like he was the onlly doggone person there dressed up). I don't know, this part is kind of hard because you do have some people that just are plain lazy and don't care, and then you have some that actually did take time to get dressed and believe they look good and presentable for an event like that wearing cargo shorts, a button up shirt, and flip flops, but that is just the way specific trends are. Some guys will wearing those BAGGY jeans sagging below their butt, baggy shirt, and a ball cap turned half sideways with the pricetag still on it....To them, that IS dressed up and looking nice. That is just the culture of that person. There just seems to be no more set standards that are across the board...

As for directly contributing to things, I think the lodge is more at fault. I gotta tell you. I believe whole heartedly in the whole thing of the internal vs. external. I really could care less what this guy wears, or what kid of shoes this guy has on. In fact, I absolutely hate when I have to wear shoes haha. If I could get away with wearing shorts and flip flops or my Vibram Five Fingers for the rest of my life, I would...lol BUT, when I go to lodge I do try to dress up and look decent for meetings. Practice, I'll do my normal thing, but for Stated or Called meetings, I will make sure that I am wearing jeans, shoes, and a button up or a collared shirt. At least. Sometimes I do the kahkis thing. I will not wear shorts and sandals to official meetings, but I have been to a couple of lodges where they would have a couple Brothers dressed like that. It is the lodges fault because they allowed this kind of stuff to happen, and then you get new young Masons coming seeing this and they think that it is all good to do it, so pretty soon they are doing it, and even involving whatever style they are into.

For an organization that is supposed to hold true to the fact that the internal is what is important, I think that it would be a bit hard for them come out and have some sort of standard guidance on what is to be worn without losing a little face. But, I do think that they should be able to say that you need to show up and dressed decent. I have heard that a lot of the lodges over on the East Coast require the members to show up to meetings in a suit and tie. Even heard that they have it at places where it has to be a black suit and tie. I think that that would keep close to being true to the internal principle and being able to have the members for sure showing looking presentable because everyone is wearing the same thing. BUT, I don't want that to be how it is here...lol I like it how we have it. I really haven't had too much of an issue about what a Brother wears to Lodge behind our doors. Lol something public that you obviously need to be dressed to impress, or even a funeral and a Brother shows up in shorts..... Not gonna happen, guy. He can go home for all I care for not respecting the event....
 

Michaelstedman81

Premium Member
If you are attending a suit and tie event, or a "black tie event", common sense says don't show up in jeans. Show up in a suit and tie.....lol I'm all about being comfortable and wearing my shorts and flip flops whenever I can, BUT I do try to use common sense....lol
 

A7V

Registered User
You also missed my point, my point wasn't that we should wear tuxs to lodge, my point is that Freemasons are quick to dress down for an event or not bother dressing appropriately at all. If that is the case, is this a reflection of society or is this laziness within the Craft? If a lodge permits their members to wear bathing suits and use a kiddie pool as an alter, that is their lodge culture. It's when there are outside Masonic events or other lodges that have a suit and tie requirement and that lodge shows up in bathing suits, claiming as you just did "If we are suppose to be equals..." and in essence crash the event with complete lack of respect for the host. It has gotten to the point when I hear the "It is the inner not the outter..." in our work I want to role my eyes over it.

If you don't agree with wearing a suit, then simply don't go to those events, it saves everybody some unwanted drama.



Because as a Mason you should be respectful enough of lodges and events that do have a standard and not show up to those events like you just did yard work, and have respect for your brothers that do have a dress code. Not show up dressed down as a matter of free speech and disrespect the hosts and your brother.

S&F,
-Bro Vick

I said I wasn't going to say anything else but this just bothers me. This idea that dressing a certain way shows respect or disrespect is archaic and should have no place in our society.

No one is disrespecting the craft by what they wear, they may be offending YOUR sensibilities but unless they start hopping up on the altar or eating chicken wings and rubbing their nasty hands all over the place, or yelling how much they hate Masons and everyone in the lodge, the way they are dressed is not disrespect.

The craft is not about clothes, or black tie events or fundraisers. Black tie events and dress codes are just a form of discrimination and have little or nothing to do with Freemasonry. It is about seeking Light and Brotherhood. Last time I checked, I could be wearing a fig leaf and still participate in being a good Brother and seeking more Light.

People want more people to become Masons, you want more people to come to the stated meetings but when they come you want to bitch about how they look!!! This same thing happens with churches, they only want you there to save your soul if you can dress the way they think someone whose soul deserves to be saved should dress. The Bible doesn't say anything about how you should dress to come to church and I can't find any documents that state how a Mason should dress to come to stated meeting.

This joke about proper attire reminds me of this whole thing

One Sunday morning an old cowboy entered a church just before services were to begin. Although the old man and his clothes were spotlessly clean, he wore jeans, a denim shirt and boots that were very worn and ragged. In his hand he carried a worn out old hat and an equally worn out old bible. The church he entered was in a very upscale and exclusive part of the city. It was the largest and most beautiful church the old cowboy had ever seen. It had high cathedral ceilings, ornate statues, beautiful murals and stained glass windows, plush carpet, and velvet like cushioned pews. The building must have cost many millions of dollars to build and maintain. The men, women and children of the congregation were all dressed in the finest and most expensive suits, dresses, shoes, and jewelry the old cowboy had ever witnessed.

As the poorly dressed cowboy took a seat the others moved away from him. No one greeted him. No one welcomed him. No one offered a handshake. No one spoke to him. They were all appalled at his appearance and did not attempt to hide the fact. There were many glances in his direction as the others frowned and
commented among themselves about his shabby attire. A few chuckles and giggles came from some of the younger members.

The preacher gave a long sermon about Hellfire and brimstone and a stern lecture on how much money the church needed to do God's work. When the offering plate was passed thousands of dollars came pouring forth.

As soon as the service was over the congregation hurried out. Once again no one spoke or even nodded to the stranger in the ragged clothes and boots. As the old cowboy was leaving the church the preacher approached him. Instead of welcoming him, the preacher asked the cowboy to do him a favor. "Before you come back in here again, have a talk with God and ask him what He thinks would be appropriate attire for worshiping in this church," the preacher said. The old cowboy assured the preacher he would do that and left.

The very next Sunday morning the old cowboy showed back up for the services wearing the same ragged jeans, shirt, boots, and hat. Once again the congregation was appalled at his appearance. He was completely shunned and ignored again. The preacher noticed the man still wearing his ragged clothes and boots, and instead of beginning his sermon, stepped down from the pulpit and walked over to where the man sat alone. "I thought I asked you to speak to God before you came back to our church," the preacher said.

"I did," replied the old cowboy.

"If you spoke to God, what did he tell you the proper attire should be for worshiping in here?" asked the preacher.

"Well sir", said the old cowboy, "God told me that He wouldn't have the slightest idea what was appropriate attire for worshiping in your church. He says He's never even been in here before."
 
Last edited:

Bro_Vick

Moderator
Premium Member
I said I wasn't going to say anything else but this just bothers me. This idea that dressing a certain way shows respect or disrespect is archaic and should have no place in our society.

Well at least it doesn't piss you off anymore. I know it is hard dealing with people that have different values than you do, even worse when they have a shared common interest. I have tried to be respectful towards your view point and I get nothing from you but how my value system is intrinsically bigoted because I expect people to respect a request who claim they are my brothers.

I don't buy the whole "discrimination" case as I got a tux from Goodwill for $75 including the shirt, bow tie and cumberbun , where there are stores that sell t-shirts by Alexander McQueen for $250, so it is a matter of priority and taste, not of means.

The Bible doesn't say anything about how you should dress to come to church and I can't find any documents that state how a Mason should dress to come to stated meeting.

By-Laws of my lodge are written that for stated meetings member will wear a coat and tie and visitors will be in business casual. As a duly and regular constituted lodge, it is a document that states how a Mason will be dressed to come to a stated meeting.

Regarding eating chicken at the alter, there are some strange things a foot in my home state of Colorado. ;)

S&F,
-Bro Vick
 
Last edited:

tomasball

Premium Member
I don't have an issue with "special" lodges requiring a suit or tux, something like a traditional observance or research lodge doing it is fine. You have to really want to join those lodges for what they do differently and if you do buying and wearing a suit won't bother you.

I think my lodge is special. My dress reflects my feelings.
 

BryanMaloney

Premium Member
Of course, there is also a rigid "non-dress code". When I first attended my mother-in-law's church, I wore a suit. That sort of dress is what I am comfortable in when it comes to Church. I was accused of trying to act superior, because I didn't conform to the local "non-dress" code.
 

Star Mztyk

Registered User
.....I looked at our Wall of Honor (Past Masters)....and I saw back to 1855 that one PM had a pic of railroad overalls. We keep all our old Bylaws that of course are suppose to be revised ever so often and never saw anything about dress codes. Most of the pics during the early decades of the 20th century were suit and tie. During that time, they were the high faluting of our community....and we to a lesser degree still are those of high regard. As I understand dress.....everything is internal and only the apron is worn external. Several of us are present at every Masonic funeral.....I wear a suit and tie...I rarely wear bluejeans.....our Chaplain is always in his overalls and I would not recognize him in any other dress.

Light N Up... and as a joke....You will not find me at an outdoor degree.....at a Nudist colony.... during the dead of winter.
 
Top