reasons why fundamentalist aspects of religion need to go

The ones who refuse to accept the facts and not impose false information ( again the example of the Kentucky biblical museum) are the fundamentalists, Protestantism,Mormonism,Catholicism, rabbinical Judaism, Zionism, Hamas Islam, and scientology. These are the problematic sects that need to either reform or disband, the world is going to move on whether they do or not, hopefully they do. Change and reform are good and show that the organization in question is attempting to change because it knows that people will not buy into it. The catholic church would refuse to admit that the sun was the center of the solar system and now it has it's own observatories, because it knew what direction the world was going in and knew it had to reform its dogma. So to answer your question of the outliers, they are the ones who refuse to accept the concrete facts that cannot be disproven due to rigorous study and trial. Thy are the one who can't handle being told they are believing in something when it's not meant to be taken literally They are the ones who hate you and me, the mason

widows son said:

The catholic church would refuse to admit that the sun was the center of the solar system and now it has it's own observatories, because it knew what direction the world was going in and knew it had to reform its dogma.

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That is untrue, but you are not unique in making that mistake. Galileo's conflicts were mainly with other scientists, not the church itself. It's quite a complex story, but one well worth researching. Cordially, Skip.

widows son said:

The ones who refuse to accept the facts and not impose false information ( again the example of the Kentucky biblical museum) are the fundamentalists, Protestantism,Mormonism,Catholicism, rabbinical Judaism, Zionism, Hamas Islam, and scientology. These are the problematic sects that need to either reform or disband, the world is going to move on whether they do or not, hopefully they do. Change and reform are good and show that the organization in question is attempting to change because it knows that people will not buy into it. The catholic church would refuse to admit that the sun was the center of the solar system and now it has it's own observatories, because it knew what direction the world was going in and knew it had to reform its dogma. So to answer your question of the outliers, they are the ones who refuse to accept the concrete facts that cannot be disproven due to rigorous study and trial. Thy are the one who can't handle being told they are believing in something when it's not meant to be taken literally They are the ones who hate you and me, the mason

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You still have not got what I have been trying to say. The word Fundamentalist is defind as the foundation or base and not the outer edges. that the early Cathlics thought the sun rotated around the earth is not the doundation. The foundation is they beleive is the son of the living God. The foundation of Islam is that Muhammad was a Profit and so on and so on..... The news media is wanting to kill all religion by saying that Fundamentalistam (the foundation) is bad but what we need to think of is the fringe of religion is the problem that is willing to force someone to convert or die. The fundamitals of the USA is the constution and the amindments. The fringe is the laws that were added after the 1929 crash that have taken away the states rights.


Dam-it now I have gone and defind MY view of what is right and what is frindge in the USA.

If you don't beleive that I am right about that defintion then you see why I was saying who is to defind what makes up fundamenitlist. Don't let the news media define it for you know the facts.


And yes that is my true belief about the USA. And I would not deny my beleifs to save my life and take Islam as a religion as the Muslam frindge want me too.

widows son said:

I don't think Jesus is my lord, saviour, or has anything to do with my path to God.

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I do not see why anyone would be offended by your position. We would disagree, obviously, but why would I, in exercising my free will by choosing to follow Jesus, be offended by those exercising their free will to refuse to do so?

And as far as masonry goes, religion no but it's a spiritual institution, so in many aspects it resembles a religion, I take the spiritual lessons from the lodge and apply them to life as does any mason

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Not many Masons would admit to the spirituality of Freemasonry, though many GL documents note its existence (e.g., Masonic Formation in CA). But if a spiritual influence is being manifested during the ritual, what is it's source? And by what authority does Freemasonry claim the ability to exercise a spiritual influence?

The bible is not a history book, we have archeology for that.

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But archeology has in many cases proven the Bible to be historically accurate. Have you any instances of the Bible mis-stating historical fact?

The topic of this chat was the reasons why fundamentalist aspects of religion need to go, and here are my reasons:
1. There is no room for growth intellectually due to dogma being finite and constant
2. When new ideas are presented they are refuted if they go against the dogma
3. To combat those ideas that go against the dogma, new reasons are created, which may or may not be entirely true
4. Violence and oppression are usually used against other who disagree with the dogma
5. Fundamentalism tries in most cases to Influence the politics of its homeland, which in the western world is constitutionally forbidden.

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I disagree with most of the preceding, but it's not an issue I want to get into in any depth. But let's use an example in Freemasonry. A prime tenet of Masonry is that a man must believe in a supreme being of some type to join. Where, then, are you, as a Freemason, allowed to grow intellectually about this finite and constant statement of dogma? Why cannot you find an intellectual reason to admit the atheist? Why do you expel the Mason who decides to become an atheist? Why are you so intolerant?

At issue is the truth of the dogmatic statement. The Christian fundamentalist has certain values that form the core of his beliefs, and these cannot be compromised. Anyone choosing not to believe that is free to do so. In my example, Freemasonry chooses such a dogma and lives with it; thus, negative comments about dogmatic statements blast Freemasonry as well as any other group making them. If one really has a problem with fundamentalism, as many have described it, he had best clean his own house of fundamental beliefs before criticizing others.

To bring this to a conclusion, or at least an end, a fundamental statement is not wrong by definition. All groups have them. The key is the nature of the statement itself. I think we'd all agree that such black and white statements must be carefully considered before making them one's own, especially in the area of religion.

In the middle east it's tearing society apart.

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Yet it is Islam that is doing it. Islam has been at war with all other religions since its founding, and what we are seeing today is just the lastest chapter. Ponder the following: why does Freemasonry flourish in Christian nations but not in Islamic ones?

Skip my beliefs are not concrete, stagnant or final, but are changing and evolving as I learn and grow as a human being, the only thing I can say is that GAOTU exsists, and from the galactic to the sub atomic he/she/it has revealed itself to us.

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Again, I do not object to that at all. All religion, to me, centers around two questions: 1) Is there a God? 2) What does he want? Sounds like you are on the second question.

Good commentary, btw. I've enjoyed thinking about the points you raised. Cordially, Skip.

Fundamentalism is a sticky word. It has been used in a lot of ways. It isn't fundamentalism I have a problem with, it is intolerance.

In general I think intolerance is a much broader set of behavior and views than most people give credit to. One can be a fundamentalist in the modern sense and be an exceedingly tolerant of other people's views. Curious, even.

One can also be progressive and very intolerant all at once and not even realize it.

Humility is a universal virtue, and the cornerstone of tolerance.

Michael Hatley said:

Fundamentalism is a sticky word. It has been used in a lot of ways. It isn't fundamentalism I have a problem with, it is intolerance.

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I think you hit the nail on the head. But even so, there are many shades of gray in assessing the term, and intolerance isn't always bad, nor is tolerance always good. Cordially, Skip.

Tolerance is 100% necessary in a global world, if we aren't then say good bye to civilization, everyone can believe in what they want without imposing their beliefs on other, such as Jehovah witness, skip I know your a devout Christian and it's not my place to tell you what your believing is wrong. If I was interested in joining a faith then I will go to that faith, I dont need people knocking on my door to try and tell me that I'm going to hell because I'm not following Christ. In my opinion hell is just a means of control, and really has history that goes far beyond the roots of judaism and Christianity but that is another topic. Doesn't Jesus say love thy neighbor? Does that apply of your neighbor is Muslim? For me it does apply, though Jesus doesn't need to teach me that

T.N. Sampson said:

...there are many shades of gray in assessing the term...

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Do you buy into "50 shades of gray"! Sorry I couldn't resist.

Skip my question to you is have you ever stepped foot in a lodge?

To reply to your statements skip, freemasonry is a spiritual institution, but spirituality is just recognizing your place in the universe. Freemasonry recognizes that we are part of a bigger picture, which all religions say. The idea of God is singularity, unity in all parts of existence, and consciousness, I don't believe God to be a being, but a universal essence, penetrating all of creation and consciousness and exists in other life forms either( I think it's ignorant to think we are alone in a universe that has a trillion more stars than single grains of sand on every beach on earth). Yes in some cases the bible has been proven by archeology to be accurate, but accurate in location maybe. Archeologist have building evidence to believe that king David and his empire was nothing more than a chiefdom. History has also proven that the likelihood of Jesus the Jewish revolutionary has more away than Jesus the messiah. We know the roman empire took over Judea and made it a province with its line of Hasmonean kings, until the revolts which started in 66AD, apparently by Jesus and revolutionaries. There are many other instances where archeology and the bible have come together. The area where I'm allowed to grow is the fact that there is no stated God, GAOTU is such a broad statement that I can mean anything, if I were to believe that my single supreme being is Saturn, then that's my God, now I don't think Saturn is my God, but I dont have a God. Atheism is a reaction to fundamentalism, and freemasonry condemns both, and freemasonry has no dogma, it only asks that the brothers keep their secrets locked in their hearts and be a uplifting spiritual person, in life, and I think you do not need to be a mason to practice this. Islam isn't tearing the mid east apart politics from extremist groups are, coupled with western foreign policy it's a breeding ground for disaster. Freemasonry flourishes in Christian countries because it originated in Christian countries. Freemasonry exists in Algeria and Lebanon in the mod east. When pope clement XII excommunicated freemasonry on the grounds of atheism ( and among other reason) sultan mahmut 1 under pressure of his Christian subjects and the ulema or islamic theologians followed suit, and has forever been instilled in the minds of the people of the middle east, so the reason why freemasonry doesn't flourish in the middle east is because of Christianity! Skip I as well have enjoyed this convo
Fraternally
Widows Son

The reason that Freemasonry doesn't flourish in the Middle East is twofold and has nothing to do with Christianity. First, it was brought by colonialist invaders from Europe. Thus, it is traditionally identified with foreign incursion and destruction of the native cultures. Second, the most common form of Freemasonry during the colonial period in that area was usually French--which by that time actually had become explicitly atheist. It's like someone who has only come across black-eyeliner wearing chronic Ecstasy users who call themselves "esoterics". Whenever they hear "esoteric", that is what they will think of, whether it's representative or not.

HKTidwell said:

Do you buy into "50 shades of gray"! Sorry I couldn't resist.

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Hadn't realized there were that few. At any rate, i've avoided the series. Can't teach an old dog new tricks, don't ya know. Cordially, Skip.

Very good point Ryan. The grand orient of France is a different breed, I found it surprising that it's involved with French politics, and even the grand master has meetings with ministers

widows son said:

Tolerance is 100% necessary in a global world, if we aren't then say good bye to civilization, everyone can believe in what they want without imposing their beliefs on other, such as Jehovah witness,

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I agree in general with you on that. I may oppose what the JW's teach, but I do not dispute their right to teach it. Nor would they dispute my right to teach as well.

it's not my place to tell you what your believing is wrong.

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Why not? If you saw me walking onto thin ice, would you not warn me?

Consider this: a JW comes to your door because he is convinced that your soul is in imminent danger. In a very real way, he's expressing his love for you be taking the time to convey his warning. The Mormon views it the same way. But neither of these visitors crash your door down, tie you up and threaten to shoot you if you do not convert. You are tolerant of their right to believe as they wish and to act out on that belief, and they are just as tolerant if you don't want to hear their warnings. That they can go door to door unmolested is the direct result of their living in a society as tolerant as the U.S.

A Muslim might be a horse of different color (or a hearse of a different caller, if you've heard the joke). Radical muslims feel it is required by Allah to either convert the infidel, or to enslave or kill him, and too many other muslims feel their actions are justified. It is a tenet taught clearly by Mohammad, and thus endorsed by Allah. Such intolerance is unacceptable to us, but a way of life in some Muslim countries. Ask the few Jews remaining in Iraq and Afghanistan, or the Coptic Christians in Egypt about how tolerant the Muslims are. That kind of intolerance, thankfully, does not exist here in the U.S., and is, I believe, a direct result of our Christian heritage.

To reply to your statements skip, freemasonry is a spiritual institution, but spirituality is just recognizing your place in the universe.

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I'd be interested if you have any GL documents that describe just what spirituality exists within the Lodge. My view is that it goes far deeper than you have noted. Just consider the concept of the spiritual temple that the Mason is supposed to be building and you'll start to see what I mean.

I don't believe God to be a being, but a universal essence, penetrating all of creation and consciousness and exists in other life forms

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Yet Lodges are erected to God, opened in his name, give obligations in which the man asks for his help and so forth. In these instances, are the use of the word 'God' referring to that in which you believe?

Yes in some cases the bible has been proven by archeology to be accurate, but accurate in location maybe.

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I think it more than that. Over the years, various folks have opined over Bible errors, only to be contradicted by facts. My view is that there are no errors of fact in the Bible.

History has also proven that the likelihood of Jesus the Jewish revolutionary has more away than Jesus the messiah. We know the roman empire took over Judea and made it a province with its line of Hasmonean kings, until the revolts which started in 66AD, apparently by Jesus and revolutionaries.

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Where are you getting this information from? I think your sources are very flawed. BTW, Jesus died around 33AD, so I don't think he was involved in revolts over three decades later.

GAOTU is such a broad statement that I can mean anything,

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I accept that as a fact. It is Masonry's special name for 'god' so that anyone can use it regardless of his beliefs.

Atheism is a reaction to fundamentalism, and freemasonry condemns both

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I think you are wrong on both counts. Atheism is just the belief that there are no gods and has nothing to do with fundamentalism. "Freemasonry," meaning the various GL's, does indeed condemn atheists by denying them membership, but does not condemn fundamentalism in the same coin. BTW, isn't your view of freemasonry condemning them both constitute a judgment on their part? I thought your view was that no one should judge.

freemasonry has no dogma

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Oh, I think it does. If dogma refers to "an offical system of principles or tenets concerning faith, morals and behavior," I'd say it very much has its own dogma. Otherwise, someone will have to rename Albert Pike's classic. Cordially, Skip.

If I were to tell you what to believe then that would make me a tyrant, however If i were to solicit you i can only show you information that might change your thought process, that could expand on your own beliefs or change them for something even higher. believe in what you want just keep it to yourself is what I think. that can go for Mormon statement as well. the GL has no specific documentation on the aspect of spirituality in the lodge, other than the recognition of a higher power. the beauty of it is that its your interpretation thats make it special and thats shared with my fellow brethren. I'm aware of what the lodge teaches about the erecting of the temple, so yes I know what it means. Lodges are opened in the name of the GAOTU , not God specifically as that would be conforming to something specific as there are many different interpretations unique to humans relating to God. all religions that have a single deity are essentially the same in the end. The bible is not a history book. I would like to hear your facts for that statement, because theres a lot of research being done there that is proving that the stories in the bible aren't accurate, and are mostly over exaggerated in the favor of the Hebrews/Christians. Whoever is the victor is writing the history. The bible was written down in actual history, so names, places, and the lot are bound to show accuracy and in that I will agree to, but there is a level of exaggeration that proves itself when closely examined, such as the dead sea scroll, which at my next point helps in the Jesus revolutionary theory. I find it impossible for anything, in the history of the universe, to die and return from the dead. I can see the metaphor to it but that's it. Now I'm not saying that Jesus was a revolutionary against the Roman Empire, but the theory is plausible. Some sources on the Roman/Jewish wars are: The Antiquities of the Jews, Josephus Flavius
The life of Josephus Flavius. Same as above and both are transcribed by William Whiston
Encyclopedia Judaica.
The Dead Sea Scrolls and the First Christians, by Robert Eisenman.
Jesus and the Zealots, SGF Brandon
My sources are not flawed because they are conducted and formulated with scientific method, however the theory which is present may or may not be true about Christ, but as far as the Romans in Judea suppressing revolts, this happened from 66AD to almost half of the 2nd century AD and is historically factual. Jesus may have died in 33AD, but who's to say his followers gained enough strength and 30 years later a united revolt happened. True? Maybe not but the possibilities and the evidence is overwhelming. Constantine also created the status of Jesus with other bishops on Nicea, in what is now Turkey. And constantine has also been proven to be both Christian and a high priest of the cult of Mithras and Sol Invictus, and both Mithras and Jesus have many attributes that are identical. As for my view on atheism and fundamentalism is the lodge, I still believe no. I am not judging them. Some of my best friends are atheists and I would give them the same love and respect as I would to any brother in the lodge. I believe spirituality is necessary in a persons life and belief that reality stems from something much higher, and should be a requirement for freemasons to be. What it is that our reality stems from I don't know, it would be ignorant to say that I do, I just know through observation of nature and the universe we can see the works of what it is. I can't control the politics of freemasonry on matters of atheism, or fundamentalism, as this is a world politic, but i think that freemasonry produces better men, than spirituality and tolerance should be mandatory.

Biblical archaeology? Seriously? Other than places being verified...please enlighten us. Good luck with Noah 's Ark. Wow.

As for dogma in freemasonry, I would still disagree, there. I would scratch out faith, masonry is not a religion. And behavior, as
A mason you are asked to uphold the good name of the order, and protect its secrets, and help your fellow brother and citizens. I'd say this more like a common understanding of compassion and humility than a dogmatic ideal that is enforced. You can sit in lodge all you want, not participate or advance and still be a member, (though not encouraged ) but what you put into masonry is what you get

Freemasonry is at the founding of America, to destroy it would be to destroy Your history,skip

widows son said:

Skip my question to you is have you ever stepped foot in a lodge?

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This question still goes unanswered, and whether he believes it or not, it is a very relevant question to which we all would like to know the answer to. However, he conveniently avoids the question.

widows son said:

Lodges are opened in the name of the GAOTU , not God specifically as that would be conforming to something specific as there are many different interpretations unique to humans relating to God.

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Most opening prayers with which I am familiar go along these lines:

Most holy and glorious Lord God, the great Architect of the Universe, the giver of all good gifts and graces: Thou hast promised that where two or three are gathered together in thy name thou wilt be in the midst of them. ... and we beseech thee, O Lord God, to bless this our present assembling...

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What I find most interesting is the phrase "where two or three are gathered together in thy name" is an almost a direct cite from Matthew 18:20. It would appear more is involved in that opening than you might wish to admit.

all religions that have a single deity are essentially the same in the end.

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As noted before, I do not agree with that. The God of the Bible is defined quite differently than is the god of Islam or that of Mormonism. We'd like to think all views are of the same God, but that's simply not the case.

The bible is not a history book. I would like to hear your facts for that statement, because theres a lot of research being done there that is proving that the stories in the bible aren't accurate, and are mostly over exaggerated in the favor of the Hebrews/Christians. ... but there is a level of exaggeration that proves itself when closely examined, such as the dead sea scroll,

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Since you've raised the issue, provide the instances. I've already stated that I believe the Bible to be without material error. Here's your chance to show me where I'm wrong.

I find it impossible for anything, in the history of the universe, to die and return from the dead.

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Reason would certainly dictate that you are right. Yet medical history shows where persons who are clinically dead have been brought back to life, some with pretty interesting stories about their experiences. In Jesus' case, though, it is strictly a matter of faith, even though the event has been testified to by those who were there.

My sources are not flawed because they are conducted and formulated with scientific method, however the theory which is present may or may not be true about Christ,

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The key point is that you are addressing theories as though they were facts. They remain theories; i.e., unproven.

Constantine also created the status of Jesus with other bishops on Nicea

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I'd dispute that. The status of Jesus was clear from both the gospels and Paul's letters long before Constantine's time. The council of Nicea "affirmed the deity of Jesus Christ and established an official definition of the Trinity—the deity of The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit under one Godhead, in three co-equal and co-eternal Persons." In so doing, it merely recognized what the Bible had taught.

both Mithras and Jesus have many attributes that are identical.

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I tend to doubt that. I don't recall Jesus ever killing a bull. I think one can make a case from the paucity of data on Mithraism, that it tends to share some attributes with Freemasonry.

I still believe no. I am not judging them. Some of my best friends are atheists and I would give them the same love and respect as I would to any brother in the lodge.

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But you have judged them as unacceptable candidates for Freemasonry. I don't see how anyone can rationally dispute that point. Cordially, Skip.