What is "within Freemasonry"

So mote it be...

scialytic said:

They are different. It probably also has a lot to do with the person as well as to where they end up travalling through on their Journey. This topic was brought up in a fairly confrontational way

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I am a scientist by inclination and profession. I formulate and ask direct questions, the more direct and to-the-root, the better. It's how all the froofraw is cut away and the heart of a matter is exposed. My life is too short to tippy-toe dance. When I see an apparent contradiction, I point it out directly and plainly. Thus, all the better to have it resolved, directly and plainly. I have found that, when exposure of apparent contradiction is followed by indignation, it means that this issue has not actually been resolved. It has just been swept under the rug. It is our nature to sweep under the rug, so as to avoid making waves--part of the human condition. Our society despises dialectic in general and insists upon the didactic. We are taught to shut up, sit down, and mildly accept whatever an "authority" pours upon us, even when those authorities desperately want to be questioned and confronted. (I used to have a teacher in high school who deliberately fed us rubbish, just to train us to speak up once in a while.)

I believe Timgould's explanation may be most fruitful to explore for me.

I'm just going to chuck a bit of "English" into this for you all as I think it may just give a bit of an all-round view that you may not necessarily get in the States.

When the first Grand Lodge in the World started in 1717 Freemasonry consisted of two Degrees (Apprentice and Fellow) topped off by becoming the Master of a Lodge (Master Mason) by 1730 we had already cobbled together a third Degree (also called a Master Mason) and had started calling the Master of the Lodge an Installed Master.

In 1737 a Scottish Mason called Chevalier Ramsey made an oration to French Masons in Paris regarding what he saw as the link between Freemasonry and the Orders of Chivalry. Soon after the French Freemasons invented the Rite of Perfection this led onto the fact that by 1766 the French had invented a whole load of extra Degrees. These proto degrees were then exported to America and finally in 1801 launched as the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry under the Supreme Council of the Southern Jurisdcition of the US followed quickly by its sisters France - 1804 and the Northern Jurisdiction US in 1813.

It is probably worth highlighting that despite the "snow-job" that surrounds the marketing, that this new set of Degrees finally arrived in England in around 1845 and only arrived in Scotland in 1846. The only connection this Rite has to Scotland is Chevalier Ramsey (because he was scottish), they are actually american Degrees based on earlier french Degrees that themselves were invented more than a hundred years after (speculative) Freemasonry can be proven to have existed (1641). Oh yes and we don't call it Scottish Rite here, it is either the Ancient & Accepted Rite or Rose Croix, it is also a Christians-only Order.

Also someone mentioned that a Mason has to have been exalted before he can sit in an English Lodge of Master Masons this is entirely incorrect. While the Royal Arch completes the MM Degree it is not necessary to be exahalted to be a MM and any Master Mason is welcome to sit in our Lodges as long as he can prove himself to be so.

What is "within Freemasonry"

Yes I mentioned that only because our DDGM in my district approx ten years ago was invited to sit in a lodge of a friend of his who is from England. He wet through the Scottish rite instead of the York rite. But he was informed that he couldn't sit in his English friends lodge because he didn't currently have the RAM degree, and so he had to get the degrees conferred on him in two days. Bryan, you say as a scientist your inclined to cut out any loose fat to get to the heart of the of the matter, and to question authority, but on another thread you say you had to get permission from your priest to join masonry. That seems a bit on the contradictory side if you ask me.

Re: What is "within Freemasonry"

widows son said:

Yes I mentioned that only because our DDGM in my district approx ten years ago was invited to sit in a lodge of a friend of his who is from England. He wet through the Scottish rite instead of the York rite. But he was informed that he couldn't sit in his English friends lodge because he didn't currently have the RAM degree, and so he had to get the degrees conferred on him in two days.

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Then you actually mean he tried to go to a Chapter meeting not a Lodge one. As I said earlier and repeat any Master Mason who is from a recognised Lodge may sit in an English Craft Lodge (we do not call them blue). However Chapters are only open to RA Companions and he would have had to be Exalted in order to attend one if he wasn't already a Companion.

The only time an american Mason would have a problem would be at an Installation meeting during the Board of Installed Masters as a Past Master here is not always the same as in America. Here a Past Master is only a Master Mason who has been the Master of a Lodge for a minimum of one year and who has Installed his successor into the Chair of King Solomon.

What is "within Freemasonry"

Interesting. BTW I'm Canadian not an American. Lol.

Re: What is "within Freemasonry"

widows son said:

Yes I mentioned that only because our DDGM in my district approx ten years ago was invited to sit in a lodge of a friend of his who is from England. He wet through the Scottish rite instead of the York rite. But he was informed that he couldn't sit in his English friends lodge because he didn't currently have the RAM degree, and so he had to get the degrees conferred on him in two days. Bryan, you say as a scientist your inclined to cut out any loose fat to get to the heart of the of the matter, and to question authority, but on another thread you say you had to get permission from your priest to join masonry. That seems a bit on the contradictory side if you ask me.

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Not in the least bit contradictory, unless one is of the belief that religion and science cannot co-exist. There are many extremely narrow-minded people on both sides of the false "division" between religion and science.

Re: What is "within Freemasonry"

BryanMaloney said:

Not in the least bit contradictory, unless one is of the belief that religion and science cannot co-exist. There are many extremely narrow-minded people on both sides of the false "division" between religion and science.

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Don't forget to add philosophy to that list! (only partially kidding, I have an MA in philosophy and two of my areas of interest is classical/medieval philosophy of nature and the philosophy of science).

What is "within Freemasonry"

Religion and science can co exist, however that's not what I was referring to. You live in country that advocates freedom of choice, and was built on rational principles, and I can't help but feel that something similar to a scientific method was applied to the creation of the principles that embody the western culture. I understand that your respect for your faith is at the top of your list. But if you live in a free country, and make it clear that your firm in your faith, why would you need to to ask permission to join something? After all isn't it ultimately your choice?

What is "within Freemasonry"

Especially after you saying to question authority. I'm sure you've gain a lot by being a part of the Masonic fraternity, but what if you were not permitted to join and those gains were never gained at all?

Re: What is "within Freemasonry"

widows son said:

Religion and science can co exist, however that's not what I was referring to. You live in country that advocates freedom of choice, and was built on rational principles, and I can't help but feel that something similar to a scientific method was applied to the creation of the principles that embody the western culture. I understand that your respect for your faith is at the top of your list. But if you live in a free country, and make it clear that your firm in your faith, why would you need to to ask permission to join something? After all isn't it ultimately your choice?

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Choice is not the same thing as license. For example, I live in a free country, but that doesn't mean that I consider myself more qualified than an osteologist regarding bone medicine. Freedom is not the same thing as "I am God." I consider my priest to be both better instructed and more skilled on moral questions than am I. Thus, I spoke with him on the matter. I was free to disobey him, but I have freely chosen to be under his guidance on such issues.

Re: What is "within Freemasonry"

widows son said:

Especially after you saying to question authority. I'm sure you've gain a lot by being a part of the Masonic fraternity, but what if you were not permitted to join and those gains were never gained at all?

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Questioning authority is not the blind, childish rebelliousness of a teenage boy. One can question authority and rationally conclude that a specific authority is valid. Masonry is not God. What I need, God will provide, however He sees fit. What can be had through Masonry, God can easily provide without it.

What is "within Freemasonry"

Gotcha. And I absolutely agree with you on questioning authority, and that is shouldn't be carried out in a childish manner. And freedom and choice definitely doesn't mean I am God.

With choice one could say, "Everything is permissible, but not everything is benfitual. Everything is permissible, but I will not be ruled by any.” And further: “There is wisdom in the multitude of counsel.” (Great Light)

With fredom comes responsibility. It is a wise brother who asks questions so as not to belead astray.

I find no harm in questions. They battle ignorance. What we do need to be mindful of,especially via email, or forums like this, is the manner in which we ask the questions. I have seen many times that a question is misinterpreted as hostile,because it was asked very frankly. The intention may not have been hostile, but the the particular writing style was so interpertated. Then, much time is wasted defending the intention and the question itself becomes lost.

It is well worth the time up front to qualify ones intention, or to be more mindful of how ones question is posed. It saves getting off on a rabbit trail later. IMHO

What is "within Freemasonry"

Well put timgould.

BryanMaloney said:

Do we speak with two mouths regarding what is and is not "within Freemasonry"? We tell ourselves and the world, over and over, that Freemasonry consists entirely and exclusively of the three Blue Lodge degrees. Nothing else is Freemasonry...

...I don't expect a straight answer, but I thought I'd ask.

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Here is a quote I thought appropriate:

"The teachings of Jesus were summarizes in these words: 'Thou shalt love thy Lord your God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all they mind.
"'This is the first great commandment.
"'And the second is like unto it, thou shalt love they neighbor as thyself.
"'On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.'

"Yet not withoutstanding this summary and essence of His message to mankind, Jesus continued to teach, to expound, to illustrate the principle involved and exhort His hearers through the use of illustration and parable, time anfter time, day after day, night after night, in the endeaver to get them to apprehend and apply in their hearts, minds and souls, the simple, direct, plain and clear presentation of principle contained in the summary above quoted."
[Russell, Edgar A., "Thoughts Inspired by the A:.A:. Scottish Rite Degrees," (1919)]

This was his answer when questioned about the validity and necessity of the appendant bodies. I believe that they are definitely *within* Freemasonry, but as each of us are on a personal Journey...you may take and leave what you will. Being Raised to the Sublime Degree has afforded you with all you *need* to be a Master Mason...the rest is optional; but clearly "within" Freemasonry.