A Brother Asks... How are the Penalties Administered "Symbolically"?

Discussion in 'Masonic Education' started by coachn, Mar 2, 2018.

  1. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

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    A Brother Asks: How does a Brother say, "yes" to the Penalties of his Obligation?

    My Response: A Brother says, "yes to the Penalties", whenever... Referee.jpg
    1. His Words prove to have no Value thus Rendering his Tongue useless, (EA WORK!)
    2. His Heart is shown not to be in what he is doing thus Rendering his Heart useless, (FC WORK!) and
    3. His Head and his Heart are shown to be torn in two different direction, thus Rendering him useless, (MM WORK!).
    Although presented as only symbolic, the penalties are allegorical for the reality that is self-inflicted by the person violating his Obligations upon himself.

    Let's make this personal. They were revealed to you so that you would...

    (Continue reading here: https://buildinghiram.blogspot.com/2016/02/a-brother-asks-how-are-penalties.html)
     
    Bro. Stewart P.M. and dfreybur like this.
  2. Warrior1256

    Warrior1256 Site Benefactor

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    Good one coachn. I enjoy your writings.
     
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  3. Bloke

    Bloke Premium Member

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    "A Brother Asks... How are the Penalties Administered "Symbolically"?"

    It's a stupid question, but I like the spin you put on it Coach. (mind you, our exact wording of ritual might be different making his question less stupid).
     
  4. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

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    What makes the question stupid for you?
    Thanks!
    Of course!
     
  5. JamestheJust

    JamestheJust Registered User

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    Who in mythology had his body cut across and burned to ashes?
     
  6. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

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    Who was on first.
     
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  7. JamestheJust

    JamestheJust Registered User

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    It is not that hard
     
  8. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

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    It is if it was self-inflicted.
     
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  9. Bloke

    Bloke Premium Member

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    They're never suggested in our ritual as being administered to Speculative Freemasons, symbolically or otherwise. Its a "historical" re-enactment. That's pretty much as far as I go on this one here Coach.
     
  10. JamestheJust

    JamestheJust Registered User

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    >Its a "historical" re-enactment.

    In the case of the 3rd penalty it is a re-enactment of an ancient event.
     
  11. Bro. Stewart P.M.

    Bro. Stewart P.M. Lead Moderator Emeritus Staff Member

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    This one is both interesting and dangerous. I suggest we take a cautious stance as to “what” is actually discussed here...

    Rule of thumb, it doesn’t take a swimming pool of water to drown.
     
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  12. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

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    Ah! In this case, the Brother was taking it one step further and asked the obvious, if they are only symbolic, and in your case merely a reference to "a historic reenactment", then why have them as part of the OB at all? Why not simply have some lecture explain that OBs in the past required such things?

    He truly wanted to know how they manifested in a member's life, even "symbolically". Hence the question. I got the gist of his interest and ran with it.
     
  13. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

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    No. It is an allusion, not "a re-enactment of an ancient event". #getyourfactsstraight&studythetriviumforgod'ssake
     
  14. Scoops

    Scoops Registered User

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    Whilst I usually fear to tread in these discussions between you and Bro. Bloke for fear of getting out of my depth, I'll wade in here. UGLE removed the symbolic penalties from our Obs. back in the eighties and refer to them further on in the degree as being "at one time included". Whether this is an innovation and whether it was for the right reasons or not I shall steer way clear from as I'm not experienced enough to have any well founded opinion...

    Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk
     
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  15. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

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    Yours is not the only jurisdiction that has changed their ritual over the issues raised by this part of ritual. Thanks for wading in and contributing.
     
    Scoops likes this.
  16. Warrior1256

    Warrior1256 Site Benefactor

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    Lol!!!
    Interesting!
     
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  17. Bloke

    Bloke Premium Member

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    Hi Coach

    I'm with Bro Stewart on this one, I want to be cautious, and to have a meaning conversation sees me beyond what I'm comfortable with unless with Brothers alone. However, before those misled fantasy conspiracy theory obsessives get excited by my likely withdrawal, I will also echo Bro Scoops, the "penalties" are also not in our UGLV Obligations, they stand outside as a historical re-enactment and even then "formally associated with the violation of an obligation" - it' should be very clear what they are to our candidates. Your spin still works nicely, but sits even more symbolically within our ritual than yours.
     
  18. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

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    Well understood.
    It seems to fit quite nicely everywhere it has been discussed so far. Most of the time I have Brothers saying it makes perfect sense to them and they wish it had been explained to them this way from the very beginning.
     
  19. otherstar

    otherstar Registered User

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    It's a passing reference, in a causal sense? Please elaborate.
     
  20. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

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    The penalties, even though they are symbolic, allude to other things.

    They allude to literature, history and more profoundly, the self-inflicted damage.
     
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