A Catholics Perspective

Discussion in 'Philosophy, Religion and Spirituality' started by Blake Bowden, Jan 23, 2010.

  1. Blake Bowden

    Blake Bowden Administrator Staff Member

    5,679
    984
    113
    Ran across this on another site...

    1. Catholics do pray to saints and Mary, for intercession, to Christ. Christ is the one mediator between God and us. But we can all pray for one another. Those who are in heaven are not dead in Christ, they are alive-alive in Heaven worshipping God, so if we pray(the word means ask not worship)then these Saints in Heaven can pray to Jesus on our behalf. The Body of Christ does not end when you die from this life.

    2. Catholic only worship the Triune God-Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

    3. Catholic immitate Jesus by honoring his Mother(4th Commandment).The word honor means to glorify. We only honor and glorify her, but no worship for she was only human. She was not divine like Jesus.

    4. The Bible, or at least the New Testament, was written BY CATHOLICS for the only Church started by Jesus which is the Catholic Church. St. Peter is the foundation the Church was built on.Matthew 16:18. The Catholic Church can trace every one of our Bishops to the Apostles and their has been an 2000 year unbroken line of Popes of 266 from St. Peter(The Rock-Cephas) to our current Pontiff Pope Benedict XV1. The New Testament, all 27 books, was decided by Catholics in the 4th Century. The basic test for whether you are a true Christian is whether you believe the Nicene Creed. We developed it to be a test of Christian orthodoxy.

    5. The Catholic Church can prove, unlike many people here, with REAL evidence that it is the only TRUE CHURCH of CHRIST. He established the Catholic Church, and in fact the first time we hear the word Catholic used was by St. Ignatius of Antioch in the year 107 ad during the time the Apostle John was still alive. He said,""Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains [i.e., a presbyter]. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).

    6. The Catholic Church has Priests, Deacons and Bishops, just like the hiarchy of Acts.

    7. The Catholic Church is the Mother Church of all Christians like; Baptists, Mennonites, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Anglicans, Episcopals, etc. We acknowledge all these Protestants as Denominations of us. We consider them imperfectly united with the Catholic Church, but they are just as much a Christian as I am. The Fullness of Christian Truth is only found in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church Christ founded. Many of these Protestants have a bit of a watered down version of what Christ left us because of their own personal and fallible choice to not follow the faith of the Apostles. The further you move away from the source the weaker it gets. Check out the "Early Church Fathers". These writings from the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Century, shows you that these Christians believe exactly how the Catholic Church does today.

    8. As far as South America is concerned, or any place for that matter. Birth Control is a moral evil. God said to be fruitful and to multiply. Up to the 1930's all Christians believed that contraception was evil. BC was actually orginally developed for Eugenics, which means to kill off babies of minorities, catholics and jews. Hitler and early Pagan Rome loved contraception and abortion for certain types of people. While the Catholic Church has always stood firm as she always will do. American Catholics in the last 20 years have been using bc, but the Church is firmly against it. It shows you that Christ was smart in having shepherds for his sheep who are prone to get lost. 1 Tim 3:15."The Church is the foundation and bulwark of Truth."

    9. Lastly, no organization on earth has done more positive for the world than the Catholic Church. While we have had some horible Popes at times, and some weeds within the Roses. And men have done tragic things in the name of his Catholic Church, which is sad. It does not take away from all the positives and how Catholicism has shaped the world. We have established more Hospitals, half way homes, pregnancy clinics, half-way houses, food banks, shelters than any group on the face of the Earth. This is a 2000 year legacy of helping our fellow man, which is without reproach historically. We started the first Universities to educate man-kind. In fact, in the 1600-1800 almost 80% of all higher learning institutions were Catholic, and the other 20% was Government.

    10. There is no question, historically or by the fruit we bear that the Catholic Church is the original Church of Christ and the only Church started by Jesus and the Church with the largest population(1.1 Billion). The Catholic Church gives more money to helping people, than all the combined Churches or other faiths combinedl Christ is King, and we praise him for His Glory. The Catholic Church's success is the evidence of Christ working through us, and the bad things that have happened is when sin corrupts men and it is that sepparation from God where individuals do horrible things no matter what faith group you belong to.
     
  2. LRG

    LRG Premium Member

    511
    11
    38
    Catholics do pray to saints and Mary, for intercession, to Christ.

    This is where we are wrong. IMOO. Thou Shall Not Worship any Other God Before Me. Our LORD needs no one to intercede for him. Further more instead of praying to saints and Mary, why not just pray to Jesus Himself?
     
  3. Blake Bowden

    Blake Bowden Administrator Staff Member

    5,679
    984
    113
    The only reason I posted this was because it explained alot of the questions I have about the Catholic faith. While I don't agree with many of his points, I enjoy reading his take of Catholicism.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  4. LRG

    LRG Premium Member

    511
    11
    38
    Indeed. Every thing has faults. I will always adore the Catholic Church and proud to be one. But if I could only have a few minutes with the pope
     
  5. drapetomaniac

    drapetomaniac Premium Member Premium Member

    471
    3
    38
    "Thou Shall Not Worship any Other God Before Me."

    This gets applied to just about everything out there. I don't venerate Saints, but they aren't gods. And while some or many many carry the veneration to extremes, I don't think they believe its God who needs Saints but they themselves.

    When we ask living people to pray for us, its not considered worshipping other Gods or saying that God needs individuals to pray for us. But we believe we need that additional prayer or that it helps.
    If I sing a song to my relative while alive, its a birthday party. If I sing to a dead relative, its called "worship"
     
  6. JTM

    JTM "Just in case" Premium Member

    2,353
    25
    38
    i don't see it as worshiping mary.

    Hail Mary, full of grace, the lord is with thee. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinner now and at the time of our death.

    how is this worship?



    i mean, sure, it's probably a pagan hangover of worshiping an ancestor's spirit, but the real difference is we are pretty open about saying it's not worship.
     
  7. jonesvilletexas

    jonesvilletexas Premium Member

    916
    10
    18
    Do not confuse the Baptist Church with protestant, a protestant is a religion where the followers originally rebelled against the catholic religion, or protested against it. The Baptist never did.
     
  8. jonesvilletexas

    jonesvilletexas Premium Member

    916
    10
    18
    In understanding the history of Protestant Church and the Reformation, it is important to first understand that one of the claims that the Roman Catholic Church makes is that of apostolic succession. This simply means that they claim a unique authority over all other churches and denominations because they claim the line of Roman Catholic Popes back throughout the centuries, all the way to the Apostle Peter. In their view, this gives the Roman Catholic Church a unique authority that supersedes all other denominations or churches. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, this apostolic succession is only “found in the Catholic Church” and no “separate Churches have any valid claim to it.”

    It is because of this apostolic succession that the Roman Catholic Church claims a unique authority to interpret Scripture and to establish doctrine, as well the claim of having a supreme leader in the Pope who is infallible (without error) when speaking “ex cathedra”—that is, in the exercise of his office as pastor and teacher of all Christians. Therefore, according to the Roman Catholic view, the teaching or traditions of the Roman Catholic Church as they come from the Pope are equally as infallible and authoritative as the Scriptures themselves. This is one of the major differences between Roman Catholics and Protestants and was one of the foundational reasons for the Protestant Reformation.

    Of course, the Roman Catholics are not the only ones who try to claim unique authority through apostolic succession or by tracing the roots of their church back to the original apostles. The Eastern Orthodox Church also claims apostolic succession, although their claim is very similar to the Roman Catholic view. The split between Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism did not occur until the “Great Schism” in A.D. 1054. There are also some Protestant denominations or groups that will try to establish a “Trail of Blood” that can be traced back through the centuries to the first century church and the apostles themselves. While these Protestants do not hold to apostolic succession in order to establish the authority of a “Pope” as an infallible leader, they still look to that connection to the early church in at least some small degree to establish the authority of their doctrines and practices.

    The problem with any of these attempts to trace a line of succession back to the apostles, whether it is Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Protestant, is that they all are attempts to derive or support the authority of what they believe and teach from the wrong source, that of some real or perceived connection with the apostles, instead of deriving it from the Word of God. It is important for Christians to realize that direct apostolic succession is not necessary in order for a church or denomination to have authority. God has given and preserved the supreme authority for all matters of faith and practice in His Holy Word, the Bible. Therefore, an individual church’s or denomination’s authority today does not come through some tie to the first century church and the apostles. Instead, it comes only and directly from the written Word of God. A church or denomination’s teachings are authoritative and binding on Christians only if they represent the true meaning and clear teaching of Scripture. This is important in order to understand the connection between Protestantism and the Roman Catholic Church, and the reason that the Protestant Reformation took place.

    In regards to the history of Christianity and the claims of apostolic succession, as well as the Roman Catholic Church’s claim of being the one true Church with unique authority, it is important that to understand a couple of key points. First, we must realize that even in the days of the apostles and the first century church, false teachers were a significant problem. We know this because warnings against heresies and false teachers are found in all the later New Testament writings. Jesus Himself warned that these false teachers would be like “wolves in sheep’s clothing” (Matthew 7:15), and that there would be both “tares and wheat” that would exist together until the day of judgment when He separates the saved from the lost, the true “born again” believer from those that have not truly received Him (Matthew 13:24-30). This is important in understanding church history, because from almost the very beginning false teachers and false teachings have been invading the church and leading people astray. Despite this, there have also been true “born again” believers who held fast to the biblical doctrine of salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, throughout all ages, even in the darkest period of the dark ages.

    The second thing to realize to correctly understand church history is that the word catholic simply means “universal.” This is important because in the early Christian writings of the first and second centuries, when the term catholic is used, it is referring to the “universal church” or “body of Christ” that is made up of “born again” believers from every tribe, tongue and nation (Revelation 5:9; 7:9). However, like many other words over time, the word catholic began to take on new meaning, or came to be used in a new sense. Over time, the concept of a “universal” or “catholic” church began to evolve into the concept that all churches formed together one church, not just spiritually, but also visibly, extending throughout the world. This misunderstanding of the nature of the visible church (which always has contained both “wheat and tares”) and the invisible church (the body of Christ which is only made up of born again believers) would lead to the concept of a visible Holy Catholic Church, outside of which there is no salvation. It is out of this misunderstanding of the nature of the universal church that the Roman Catholic Church evolved.

    Prior to the Constantine’s conversion to Christianity in A.D. 315, Christians had been persecuted by the Roman government. With his conversion, Christianity became an allowed religion of the Roman Empire (and later became the official religion), and thus the “visible” Church became joined with the power of the Roman government. This marriage of church and state led to the formation of the Roman Catholic Church, and over time caused the Roman Catholic Church to refine its doctrine and develop its structure in a way that best served the purpose of the Roman government. During this time, opposing the Roman Catholic Church was the same as opposing the Roman government and carried with it severe penalties. If one disagreed with some doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church, it was a serious charge that often resulted in excommunication and sometimes even death.

    Yet throughout this time of history, there were true “born again” Christians who would rise up and oppose the secularization of the Roman Catholic Church and the perversion of the faith that followed. Through this church-and-state combination, the Roman Catholic Church effectively silenced those who opposed any of its doctrines or practices, and truly became almost a universal church throughout the Roman Empire. There were always pockets of resistance to some of the unbiblical practices and teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, yet they were relatively small and isolated. Prior to the Protestant Reformation in the sixteenth century, men such as John Wycliffe in England, John Huss in Czechoslovakia, and John of Wessel in Germany had all given their lives for their opposition to some of the unbiblical teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.

    The opposition to the Roman Catholic Church and its false teaching came to a head in the sixteenth century, when a Roman Catholic monk named Martin Luther posted his 95 propositions (or theses) against the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church on the Castle Church door at Wittenberg, Germany. Luther’s intention was to bring reform to the Roman Catholic Church, and in doing so was challenging the authority of the Pope. With the refusal of the Roman Catholic Church to heed Luther’s call to reformation and return to biblical doctrines and practices, the Protestant Reformation began. From this Reformation four major divisions or traditions of Protestantism would emerge: Lutheran, Reformed, Anabaptist, and Anglican. During this time God raised up godly men in different countries in order to once again restore churches throughout the world to their biblical roots and to biblical doctrines and practices.

    Underlying the Protestant Reformation lay four basic doctrines in which the reformers believed the Roman Catholic Church to be in error. These four questions or doctrines are How is a person saved? Where does religious authority lie? What is the church? And what is the essence of Christian living? In answering these questions, Protestant Reformers such as Martin Luther, Ulrich Zwingli, John Calvin, and John Knox established what would be known as the “Five Solas” of the Reformation (sola being the Latin word for “alone”). These five points of doctrine were at the heart of the Protestant Reformation, and it was for these five essential Biblical doctrines that the Protestant Reformers would take their stand against the Roman Catholic Church, resisting the demands placed on them to recant, even to the point of death. These five essential doctrines of the Protestant Reformation are as follows:

    1-“Sola Scriptura,” or Scripture Alone: This affirms the Biblical doctrine that the Bible alone is the sole authority for all matters of faith and practice. Scripture and Scripture alone is the standard by which all teachings and doctrines of the church must be measured. As Martin Luther so eloquently stated when asked to recant on his teachings, "Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason - I do not accept the authority of the popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other - my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. God help me. Amen."

    2—“Sola Gratia,” Salvation by Grace Alone: This affirms the Biblical doctrine that salvation is by God’s grace alone and that we are rescued from His wrath by His grace alone. God’s grace in Christ is not merely necessary, but is the sole efficient cause of salvation. This grace is the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit that brings us to Christ by releasing us from our bondage to sin and raising us from spiritual death to spiritual life.

    3—“Sola Fide,” Salvation by Faith Alone: This affirms the Biblical doctrine that justification is by grace alone through faith alone because of Christ alone. It is by faith in Christ that His righteousness is imputed to us as the only possible satisfaction of God’s perfect justice.

    4—“Solus Christus,” In Christ Alone: This affirms the Biblical doctrine that salvation is found in Christ alone and that His sinless life and substitutionary atonement alone are sufficient for our justification and reconciliation to God the Father. The gospel has not been preached if Christ’s substitutionary work is not declared, and if faith in Christ and His work is not solicited.

    5—“Soli Deo Gloria, For the Glory of God Alone: This affirms the Biblical doctrine that salvation is of God and has been accomplished by God for His glory alone. It affirms that as Christians we must glorify Him always, and must live our entire lives before the face of God, under the authority of God, and for His glory alone.

    These five important and fundamental doctrines are the reason for the Protestant Reformation. They are at the heart of where the Roman Catholic Church went wrong in its doctrine, and why the Protestant Reformation was necessary to return churches throughout the world to correct doctrine and biblical teaching. They are just as important today in evaluating a church and its teachings as they were then. In many ways, much of Protestant Christianity needs to be challenged to return to these fundamental doctrines of the faith, much like the reformers challenged the Roman Catholic Church to do in the sixteenth century.
     
    Raymond Walters likes this.
  9. Blake Bowden

    Blake Bowden Administrator Staff Member

    5,679
    984
    113
    Agreed. I don't see this as worship.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2010
  10. JTM

    JTM "Just in case" Premium Member

    2,353
    25
    38
    denotation =

    1. Protestantism is a movement within Christianity that originated in the sixteenth-century Protestant Reformation.
    2. any of several denominations of Christianity that separated from the Roman Catholic Church based on theological or political differences during the Protestant Reformation

    sure. strictly speaking, it's not a first generation protestant religion. but yes, baptists are protestants, especially if you consider the connotation. everyone uses "Protestant" to describe baptists. either way, it has come to be applicable.
     
  11. JTM

    JTM "Just in case" Premium Member

    2,353
    25
    38
    did you write this up? either way, i don't mean to be insulting... but the entire tone of this article is "insecurity."

    it's like this. the catholic church still "claims" that all the relics are real, but if you were to piece together all the "pieces of Christ's cross" in European catholic churches, you'd have more wood than you needed to make a cross.

    go ask any educated priest that deals with people on a normal basis these questions. he'll look at you and smile. in a "that really doesn't matter nowadays" kind of look. we catholics have 2000 years of opportunities to make mistakes, and plenty have been made. some pretty absurd claims have been made.

    either way, think about it this way: if the pope would get up on his pedestal and preach about how Catholicism invalidates every other religion... how would that go over?

    i don't think this article is necessary any longer. maybe 500 years ago, but not today. even more especially, i'm not sure why these last two posts were even applicable to this thread.

    perhaps you could enlighten me?

    edit: again, i mean no harm. more of an assertive discussion/defense of my denomination, i suppose. :)
     
  12. drapetomaniac

    drapetomaniac Premium Member Premium Member

    471
    3
    38
    This snippet sums up how I've viewed Orthodox and Protestantism. The "problem" mentioned with tracing succession, in my mind, is the grab at authority. There are many protestant churches that follow apostolic succession as a level of importance in their denomination. Not as *the authority* but as *authority* in general.

    "Sola Scriptura" has also been heavily expanded and (to use your phrase) become a bit of a perversion. Bibliolatry has risen substantially. I have a buddy who calls his church " a Bible church." To me, that's a little like saying "our church doesn't eat babies." Every church is a Bible church, especially protestant churches. The difference is Orthodox churches are part of the family that recognize that the first several centuries consisted of very learned men studying the earliest Christian teachings and coming up with a very large amount of the cosmology and basic teaching sof Christianity, including the creeds.

    Protestantism allows one to ignore the first Christians, their council, writings - and worse, a large number ignore the context of the scripture. They get to keep the parts they want from "tradition" (which is really the proceedings of those first centuries of councils) and ignore the rest.

    One good example is the eschatology behind Left Behind. The whole armageddon, etc. Was never mentioned before the 1830s. (I'll make a separate post on this)

    The same with "race mixing" doctrines which were very popular until recently. We left our childhood church, which was the largest Pentecostal church in the region, because the pastor's son decided to marry a Black woman and a series of "separation of tribes" sermons broke out. And of course, Bob Jones University, only softly rescinded this as a teaching very recently. The early churches and council consisted of Africans, Semites, Europeans and Asians were part of the early councils. Tracing those back, there were very early teachings regarding not intermarrying. By faith. Which was probably a holdover from Judaism. But those same scriptures and half understanding of the tradition behind them were used in the US, South Africa and other places to preach against miscegenation and even subjugation. (Catholics did too, but it took years of proceedings and hearings to come to similar arguments, but even then non-Europeans faired better under these conclusions.)

    Judaism was born, then Christians came along with text to prove they were correcting the path of the Jewish religion. Christianity was born and Islam came along and corrected the path of Jews and Christians. Protestants came along and corrected the path of all other Christians. Mormons came along and corrected the path of all Christians. Every denomination came along and corrected the path of every other Christian.
    All based on text.

    The specifics of the doctrine of the Trinity weren't codified until the 4th century. But it was formed by men deeply embedded in the other learned Christians of their time.

    For those interested in very early Christian writings, this is a great resource: http://www.ccel.org/

    These are the writings that helped shape Christianity for more than a thousand years before we started actively ignoring them in favor of what is frequently "from scratch" interpretations.
     
    Raymond Walters likes this.

Share My Freemasonry