Christianity and Homosexuality

Discussion in 'The Refreshment Lounge' started by Blake Bowden, Nov 29, 2009.

  1. Blake Bowden

    Blake Bowden Administrator Staff Member

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    Thoughts?

    New (wrong) thoughts on homosexuality: Progressive Revelation

    Chrtistian gay advocates say: progressive revelation has "revealed" that homosexuality is now acceptable to God. Just as it was okay to have multiple wives in the Old Testament, and God changed that rule such that we can now only have one wife, we can now see in our culture that God has changed the rule about homosexuality.

    First, what is progressive revelation?

    Progressive revelation means that God did not tell us everything from the beginning. He has revealed information about Himself, his law, and salvation in steps. Over a period of time He has told us more and more.

    In the Old Testament we see God taking people from a pagan culture and teaching them how to be the people we were created to be. He did not try to change them in a day, but instead took 2000 years (from Abraham until Jesus came) to lead them to the point at which some could accept Jesus as the Messiah.

    In reading the Old Testament we can see that people do not change easily. For example, from the beginning God has made it clear that He is the only God, and that worshipping idols is not only useless, but wrong. Yet the Israelites continued to turn back to worshipping idols for 1000 years after they were told it was wrong -- from the time of Moses until the Babylonian captivity.

    Imagine what would have happened if God had skipped the Old Testament and sent Jesus right away. Jesus, and his message, would have been ignored (as were most of God's Old Testament prophets). We'd have a dead messiah and no salvation.

    So God took His time and changed things slowly, at a pace humankind could accept. For example:

    <> Nowhere in the Old Testament does God say that having multiple wives is okay. He did not reveal that it was wrong until the New Testament. However, from the beginning it has always been wrong to have more than one wife. Genesis 2:24 says:

    "This explains why a man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and the two are united into one." (NLT)

    Genesis does not say "is joined to his wives" -- it is very clear in saying "wife" (singular) and that the "two" (not three or four or five) are joined into one.

    However, God knew that if He immediately tried to change the culture which supported having multiple wives, in our free will we would have turned away from Him. Instead of drawing us closer to Him, we would have turned away from God.

    So God progressively revealed what He wanted and allowed man to change his culture slowly over a long period of time. That is why it is called progressive revelation.

    It is important to note that we are talking about what God has revealed to us. How does God communicate with us today? Through the Bible. With the birth, death and resurrection of Jesus -- and the New Testament -- God's revelation is complete.

    Gay advocates say that in today's world God is continuing to reveal new things to us through our culture. That since homosexuality is culturally acceptable, it is acceptable to God.

    WOW! What is that really saying?

    We know that culture is created by people. That's why we have so many different cultures. If we are saying that God is communicating to us through our culture, we are saying:

    1. That American culture is the one true culture blessed by God. All other cultures, for example those that do not accept homosexuality, are wrong.

    2. Since culture is created by people, God is changing based on what people want! And as you know, what we want changes all the time.

    That God should change is beyond comprehension. If God changes, how are we to know that He has not changed His mind about salvation? Maybe tomorrow morning we'll wake up and find that God has changed His mind and only people who drive BMWs are saved. If God changes, we can not be sure of anything. We are lost in uncertainty, never knowing for sure what is right or wrong; what God loves and what God hates; or how we can be saved.

    The truth is: God's revelation to us ended when the last book of the New Testament was written.

    http://www.evangelical.us/homosexuality/progressive-revelation.html
     
  2. lopezgj

    lopezgj G. Lopez, PM Premium Member

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    “For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed”. Malachi 3: 6 KJV

    My thoughts:

    I do not believe that God changes, as nothing would be certain if our Supreme Architect wasn’t. I also do not believe that our Supreme Architect conforms to our will or culture. I don’t believe the created can tell the Creator what’s right or acceptable just because the created may want it to be right or accepted. Can the clay say to the Potter, “what are you making?” To even suggest this is to begin to say that our Supreme Grand Master is not the Alpha and Omega. Not all seeing, all knowing, all powerful and ever present. Almost to admit that the Supreme Architect of the Universe makes mistakes. If so, then that would make Him just like us and would also suggest that our Supreme Grand Master is a push-over to what we (the created) wants and that we not HIM are really running the show.

    I would rather conform to HIM…..
     
  3. ddreader

    ddreader Premium Member Premium Member

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    brother lopez. i can not disagree, with anything that you have written. some of us are better at expressing ourselves than others, especially when they are compassionate on the topic. thanks
     
  4. LRG

    LRG Premium Member

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    Double that, wonderful insight
     
  5. ljlinson1206

    ljlinson1206 Premium Member Premium Member

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    I don't think there is anything that I could add to elaborate on the truth that you have spoken Brother Lopez.
     
  6. owls84

    owls84 Moderator Premium Member

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    I would like to agree with Bro. Lopez. I would also like to welcome him personally to the forum. I am excited to see what else he can add to the discussions.
     
  7. rhitland

    rhitland Founding Member Premium Member

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    You aught to here this Brother in his degree work, magnifico! You feel this passion coming out of him. Great to have you on here Brother Golden.
     
  8. Nate Riley

    Nate Riley Premium Member

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    I also agree with Bro. Lopez.

    And add that IMO the argument about multiple wives is another fallacy in the article. Just because someone did something in the Bible does not make it acceptable. If you want to see how multiple wives caused problems look at the life of David. I'm sure Solomon had some problems as well, whether they are written or not, I don't know. It’s my belief that from the beginning God intended for marriage to be between one man and one woman.
     
  9. rhitland

    rhitland Founding Member Premium Member

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    Not to sure about that. Considering all founding men had many wifes and God told David through Nathan He would have given him more.

    There is also the issue of being able to wack your kiddos for severe misbehavior how did that one get changed?

     
  10. Nate Riley

    Nate Riley Premium Member

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    To which "founding men" are you referring?
     
  11. TCShelton

    TCShelton Founding Member Premium Member

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    So, do we listen to their words or their deeds?
     
  12. rhitland

    rhitland Founding Member Premium Member

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    Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon. All founding men is a bit to broad of term I used as some also had only one wife according to history. But I digress as the point I was trying to make was that God said he gave David many wifes amongst others so why did he have to go steal one and wack her husband when God would have given him more, thus approving of multiple wifes.
     
  13. RedTemplar

    RedTemplar Johnny Joe Combs Premium Member

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    Heterosexuality, homosexuality, or bisexuality. WHAT IS THE TRUTH? As Christians, we are taught that Jesus Christ is the Truth. I am often reminded from Eastern Star about Truth. "Truth is eternal and unchanging....... Seek ye therefore the Truth, and having found it, make it thine own. And all these other things, faith, hope, and Love will be added unto it." So, IMHO, if you have the Truth, nobody has to tell you right from wrong.
     
  14. Nate Riley

    Nate Riley Premium Member

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    Both. And we can learn as much from there mistakes and sinful behavior, and the consequences thereof, as their good deeds.
     
  15. Nate Riley

    Nate Riley Premium Member

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    Some is a better word. Adam the founding man, if you will (i believe God is the founder) had only one wife that we know of, per the Bible. And I think, with further reading, we we can see that it caused problems for each of the prominent men you listed. The Bible clearly says that Solomon's wives lead him away from the Lord.

    As far as the second point, this probably an issue of interpretation. I tend to read the New American Standard Bible. It uses the word "care" instead of "arms" in verse 8, referring to Saul's wives. I also throw out the following information from the Jamieson, Fausset, Brown Bible Commentary regarding verse 8:

     
  16. TCShelton

    TCShelton Founding Member Premium Member

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    Sounds great, it just doesn't answer the question. When someone says one thing, and does another, which do we recognize as truth?

    As far as Solomon's wives leading him away from god, I was under the impression that it was due to their pagan beliefs, not due to the number of wives.
     
  17. rhitland

    rhitland Founding Member Premium Member

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    You hit the nail on the head. This is an issue of interpretation which has evolved over time according to societies standards and education. I for one have my own interpretation as we all should and have the right to. Just as one would have the right to interpret the bible on the subject of homosexuality. There is no "they" that can say this part of the bible is right or this part is wrong except our own hearts.
     
  18. MGM357

    MGM357 Registered User

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    The advocates are in denial!!! without heterosexuals, gays would not exist.Afterall they cant reproduce. We now live in world where no one is wrong and feelings can't get hurt. When the day of judgement comes apon us, God will not be politically correct.
     
  19. TCShelton

    TCShelton Founding Member Premium Member

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    Which really has nothing to do with this discussion, unless you are trying to tie that into what is correct. When you look at it with that mindset, since homosexual sex can't reproduce, how can we consider it sex to begin with?

    No, we now live in a world where people are almost free to make their own choices and live their lives the way they feel they should, without having others pass judgement on them, which like you said, will be what god does when the time comes. Whether god is polically correct should probably be the least of our worries.

    Then we throw in Bro. Nate's arguement regarding multiple wives, where we can use different versions of the Bible, then interpret whatever we want how we want, then factor in how this has been done since the time of Jesus, hence all the versions we have now, add in who wrote what sections, and how long after Christ those sections were written, how much of what Christ said didn't make it in, and who really knows what Jesus thought regarding gays? I sure wouldn't stake my soul, or that of someone else on 2,000 years of hearsay.
     
  20. rhitland

    rhitland Founding Member Premium Member

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    Not so sure about that one. Long ago that statement was true but I know many gay people and lots of them have had children. There are ways to make it happen today just look at Octo-Mom. As long as we have men and women gay or straight we can reproduce it no longer takes a sexual act, with the knowledge we have discovered.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2009

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