My Freemasonry | Freemason Information and Discussion Forum

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Does a woman have to come to OES first?

Travelling Man91

Registered User
Well i mean technically the 9 southern PHA GLs that dont have recognition of their GLoState counterparts are clandestine to the GLoStates.
Im gonna talk to my Senior Grand Warden and see what our options are to extend recognition to them

Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app
We've discussed this topic till our face was blue. I don't believe the 9 southern PHA GL'S that are not accepted by their counterparts are clandestine, I believe the correct word would be "Unrecognized"
 

Ripcord22A

Site Benefactor
I believe the words are interchangable....the CIA has CLANDESTINE operations that are NOT(UN) RECOGNIZED....those PHA lodges arent irregular or bogus or anything like that as they have lineage but since they arent recognized by their counterparts that makes them clandestine untill such a time that they are recognized by their countpartd

Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app
 

Travelling Man91

Registered User
I believe the words are interchangable....the CIA has CLANDESTINE operations that are NOT(UN) RECOGNIZED....those PHA lodges arent irregular or bogus or anything like that as they have lineage but since they arent recognized by their counterparts that makes them clandestine untill such a time that they are recognized by their countpartd

Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app
In Masonic language/lingo, what does clandestine mean ?
 

mrpierce17

KOP Council director / Lodge instructor
Premium Member
According to dictionary
ImageUploadedByMy Freemasonry Pro1470228197.084492.jpg
 

Ripcord22A

Site Benefactor
Oh okay. So in other words clandestine, and not recognized are pretty much the same thing ?
Yeah, essentially. Some brothers wont use the term "clandestine" when speaking of PHA as it conjures up thoughts of irregularity. You can be regular and just as legit as any Mason on here and still be clandestine if you don't have recognition(read:pHA). Or you can be irregular and more bogus then a $3 bill and be clandestine.
 

dfreybur

Premium Member
Oh okay. So in other words clandestine, and not recognized are pretty much the same thing ?

Some jurisdictions use the word that way, but it does not match the way the word is used by Masonic researchers. So the meaning is ambiguous and has to come form context. If your GL calls a GL clandestine that might just be them using the word in a way they decided to but that isn't what is meant outside of that jurisdiction.

Simply put, some GLs use the word incorrectly but since they get to make the rules in their own jurisdiction they get to do that. "Locally defined" does not contradict "incorrectly used".

Clandestine is generally about invalid lineage. Some GLs still claim that PHA has invalid lineage but we all know that was long ago declared nonsense. They get to be incorrect within their own boundaries.
 

Ripcord22A

Site Benefactor
Just before the May deadline for this year's Nov annual communication I attempted to submit legislation to recognize MWPHGLofGA based on that. Because I was not physically present the secretary had no idea what I was talking about so it wasn't presented and missed the deadline. I'll try again this year.
we have an occasional GL coming up that I might go to. Never been to a GL meeting before so not sure how it works but if at closing they ask if any brother has anything, I think I will stand and broach this subject!
 

Bill Lins

Moderating Staff
Staff Member
I thought clandestine was in reference to no valid lineage etc.
In order to be recognized, Grand Lodges are required to be considered as "regular in origin (meaning having proper lineage) and practice (meaning adhering to the commonly accepted "Landmarks")"
I find the term "not regular in (either origin or practice)" to be much more descriptive and meaningful than the term "clandestine".
 

Ripcord22A

Site Benefactor
In order to be recognized, Grand Lodges are required to be considered as "regular in origin (meaning having proper lineage) and practice (meaning adhering to the commonly accepted "Landmarks")"
I find the term "not regular in (either origin or practice)" to be much more descriptive and meaningful than the term "clandestine".
I like this Bill that is a good way to put it!
 

Travelling Man91

Registered User
Some jurisdictions use the word that way, but it does not match the way the word is used by Masonic researchers. So the meaning is ambiguous and has to come form context. If your GL calls a GL clandestine that might just be them using the word in a way they decided to but that isn't what is meant outside of that jurisdiction.

Simply put, some GLs use the word incorrectly but since they get to make the rules in their own jurisdiction they get to do that. "Locally defined" does not contradict "incorrectly used".

Clandestine is generally about invalid lineage. Some GLs still claim that PHA has invalid lineage but we all know that was long ago declared nonsense. They get to be incorrect within their own boundaries.
Agreed. That's what I always understood clandestine to be. Leaning more towards bogus masonry. Even though my GL does not recognize our counterparts, I've yet to hear "clandestine" when speaking of them.
 

Travelling Man91

Registered User
In order to be recognized, Grand Lodges are required to be considered as "regular in origin (meaning having proper lineage) and practice (meaning adhering to the commonly accepted "Landmarks")"
I find the term "not regular in (either origin or practice)" to be much more descriptive and meaningful than the term "clandestine".
Very well agreed.
 

Bloke

Premium Member
Oh okay. So in other words clandestine, and not recognized are pretty much the same thing ?

People have chimed in, but definitely not the same. Just because I do not recognize you does not make you clandestine. For instance, we have unrecognized study groups here, but they are far from clandestine. We might not recognise a regular GL in the USA, us not recognizing it does not make it clandestine, simply unrecognised. For me, unrecognised is a relative term, whereas clandestine is a group which is outside the generally accepted landmarks of main stream freemasonry (again that's also subjective, but in "main stream" I am including regular Prince Hall GLs) and which, should I join it, would put me outside my own GL. And I don't quite see "bogus" and "clandestine" as the same. Bogus to me means something made up - like a few guys getting together for the purpose of scamming people. There are clandestine organisations around with long lineages, 50 years ago that would have included many PH GLs - they're were hardly "bogus". And I guess at some point, with a history and good intent not to exploit people, even a "bogus" group might make the transition to the legitimacy of being clandestine :)
 

Glen Cook

G A Cook
Site Benefactor
In order to be recognized, Grand Lodges are required to be considered as "regular in origin (meaning having proper lineage) and practice (meaning adhering to the commonly accepted "Landmarks")"
I find the term "not regular in (either origin or practice)" to be much more descriptive and meaningful than the term "clandestine".
And that is why the Commission on Information for Recogniton currently tends toward the phrase, "not meeting the standards of recognition."
 
Top