Freemasonry and Moors

[Michael Neumann]

Has anyone read this? Found it today while in a debate.

http://moorishacademy.org/articles/the_masons_and_the_moors.html

"The origins
of Freemasonry – as would be expected of such a “venerable secret society†– are
shrouded in myth, legend and almost impenetrable obscurity. Since at least the
late 18th century Masonic writers have sought to establish a link between the
Knights Templar and the Freemasons. Freemasonic lore and symbols have been
traced to ancient Egypt and Phoenicia. Yet, despite all the books and articles
exploring Freemasonry published over the last hundred years, there is one area
that has not received attention. It concerns Freemasonry’s debt to Islamic
mysticism and a shadowy tradition connecting the Masons with the Moors of North
Africa. "

 

[jvarnell]

Has anyone read this? Found it today while in a debate.

http://moorishacademy.org/articles/the_masons_and_the_moors.html

"The origins
of Freemasonry – as would be expected of such a “venerable secret society” – are
shrouded in myth, legend and almost impenetrable obscurity. Since at least the
late 18th century Masonic writers have sought to establish a link between the
Knights Templar and the Freemasons. Freemasonic lore and symbols have been
traced to ancient Egypt and Phoenicia. Yet, despite all the books and articles
exploring Freemasonry published over the last hundred years, there is one area
that has not received attention. It concerns Freemasonry’s debt to Islamic
mysticism and a shadowy tradition connecting the Masons with the Moors of North
Africa. "

I see that article as someone tying Masonry to just one thing. I see Masonry links to many paths of that time period that came from one source earlier in history. If you read anything written by someone with an Arab background you will see every time period starts in the time of Mohammad. That is why they built on the dome of the rock where they did and many other mosk's on other religious historical sites through time. If say something enough the people will think it true. Practice makes permanent not perfect.

 

[Michael Neumann]

I am looking to poke holes in the theory. The statement was also made that the Moors continued a tradition of Baal.


Here is their supporting evidence - Jewish Vitual Library http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0003_0_01786.html which lines you up for the folloing link -

"BAAL FIRE--ST. JOHN'S EVE.
Readers of the Old Testament are well acquainted with the condemnation passed
upon the worship of Baal, but some of them may be surprised to know that there
is a custom in Northumberland of lighting Baal fires on St. John's Eve, which is
a relic of ancient Baal worship. .... On the evening of
the 4th July a cart is borrowed and loaded with branches of faggots, some of the
men get into the shafts... The village turns out en masse to see the bonfire
built. The children join hands and dance round the stack of wood and branches
until they are tired; youths and maidens also dance a little distance away."
http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/eng/osc/osc17.htm

With additional support because Morocco was the first country to recognize the U.S. - "This recognition was granted in 1777, making Morocco the first country to recognize the United States of America. Negotiations on a formal treaty to establish ties between the two countries began in 1783. The Moroccan-American Treaty of Friendship was signed in 1786. John Adams and Thomas Jefferson, both future U.S. Presidents were the signatories for the United States.Renegotiated in 1836, the treaty is still in force, constituting the longest unbroken treaty in U.S. history. As testament to the special nature of the U.S.-Moroccan relationship, Tangier is home to the oldest U.S. diplomatic property in the world, and the only building on foreign soil that is listed in the U.S. National Register of Historic Places, the American Legation in Tangier (now a museum)." http://www.embassyofmorocco.us/USMoroccorelationship.htm

 

[Michael Neumann]

If say something enough the people will think it true. Practice makes permanent not perfect.

VERY VERY true

 

[dfreybur]

Has anyone read this? Found it today while in a debate.

http://moorishacademy.org/articles/the_masons_and_the_moors.html

The document has some good and bad points. Its claim that Thomas Jefferson was a Mason does not help. Lots of folks would love evidence that he was a Mason but no such evidence ever appears. Its description of Washington and Franklin as "high level Masons" whatever that means does not help either.

If you study almost any form of traditional mysticism and then look for it in Masonry you'll find it. This paper claims Islamic mysticism appears in Masonic ritual and symbolism. If you know what to look for I figure it is there. The paper complains that Masonry isn't Islamic mysticism intact. Yep, that's true. it's deliberate as far as I can tell.

Masonic ritual and symbolism is an amalgam of every type of mysticism the folks of the 1700s could find. They attempted to craft a universal order by including bits from everywhere they could find. Whether it worked or not is matter for the individual brother to decide. That folks who focus on any one form of mysticism complain that Masonry is not their form intact is to be expected.

 

[dfreybur]

I am looking to poke holes in the theory. The statement was also made that the Moors continued a tradition of Baal.


Here is their supporting evidence - Jewish Vitual Library http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0003_0_01786.html which lines you up for the folloing link -

"BAAL FIRE--ST. JOHN'S EVE.
Readers of the Old Testament are well acquainted with the condemnation passed
upon the worship of Baal, but some of them may be surprised to know that there
is a custom in Northumberland of lighting Baal fires on St. John's Eve, which is
a relic of ancient Baal worship. .... On the evening of
the 4th July a cart is borrowed and loaded with branches of faggots, some of the
men get into the shafts... The village turns out en masse to see the bonfire
built. The children join hands and dance round the stack of wood and branches
until they are tired; youths and maidens also dance a little distance away."
http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/eng/osc/osc17.htm

This confuses Baal fire with bale fire. Bale fire is a word that comes to English from Sanskrit through Old Norse and it means a funeral pyre. Baal fire is a word that comes to English from Hebrew and it means any of the pantheon followed by the Hebrews before they converted after Abraham and Moses.

Seasonal cycles matter greatly because they drive the crop planting and harvesting cycle and the herd breeding and slaughter cycle. In the north the seasons are more pronounced so they matter more. The sacred-texts site mentions the tradition has a Druidic origin from before the conversion in Europe. Near the summer and winder solstices fires were made to celebrate the cycle of the Sun's daily track north and south every year. The fires represented the Sun so they are funeral fires. If you've ever been to a Swedish-American MidSommar Fest or a Norwegian-American MidSommar bonfire you would see the practice was wider than just the Celtic pre-conversion Druids. It was also practiced across the Rhine in regions the Romans called the Germanics (a term that includes both mainland and Scandanavia branches as well as the now-extinct Goths).

Bale fires in European tradition are not evidence that Muslim Moors still followed some pre-conversion Hebrew traditions. They are evidence that European Christians still followed some pre-conversion traditions. As the conversion progressed many traditions were absorbed.

 

[Michael Neumann]

Thank you. The guys here randomly find videos with "hidden" knowledge. Much like another of our brethren stated, these movies have a lot of flash, yet little bang. They give you tidbits of information, just enough to provide surface support. In order to preserve any bit of belief they have generated in the viewer they generally state that evidence of whatever they stated has been covered up by a worldwide conspiracy. How can you argue that? Of course you will not find support, it has been covered up. :52:

 

[widows son]

"This confuses Baal fire with bale fire. Bale fire is a word that comes to English from Sanskrit through Old Norse and it means a funeral pyre. Baal fire is a word that comes to English from Hebrew and it means any of the pantheon followed by the Hebrews before they converted after Abraham and Moses.

Seasonal cycles matter greatly because they drive the crop planting and harvesting cycle and the herd breeding and slaughter cycle. In the north the seasons are more pronounced so they matter more. The sacred-texts site mentions the tradition has a Druidic origin from before the conversion in Europe. Near the summer and winder solstices fires were made to celebrate the cycle of the Sun's daily track north and south every year. The fires represented the Sun so they are funeral fires. If you've ever been to a Swedish-American MidSommar Fest or a Norwegian-American MidSommar bonfire you would see the practice was wider than just the Celtic pre-conversion Druids. It was also practiced across the Rhine in regions the Romans called the Germanics (a term that includes both mainland and Scandanavia branches as well as the now-extinct Goths).

Bale fires in European tradition are not evidence that Muslim Moors still followed some pre-conversion Hebrew traditions. They are evidence that European Christians still followed some pre-conversion traditions. As the conversion progressed many traditions were absorbed."

- I like this.

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Baal the Canaanite word for the supreme being?

 

[jvarnell]

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Baal the Canaanite word for the supreme being?

Is this a translation problem, is this a problem with writing things verses mouth to ear. When is it miss-interpreted it is bad.

 

[dfreybur]

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Baal the Canaanite word for the supreme being?

On www.dictionary.com it lists "lord". Not sure if that counts as a yes or no as an answer.

 

[BryanMaloney]

"BAAL FIRE--ST. JOHN'S EVE.
Readers of the Old Testament are well acquainted with the condemnation passed
upon the worship of Baal, but some of them may be surprised to know that there
is a custom in Northumberland of lighting Baal fires on St. John's Eve,

The lighting of bonfires on a specific night is practiced in a very large number of cultures. Who is so daft as to suggest that this means EVERYBODY AROUND THE WORLD worshiped some obscure pagan Semitic deity? That's as silly as the tired old lie that the entire holiday of "Easter" is based on Ishtar merely because there is a coincidental resemblance between the two names. I would not trust any book published in 1910 that makes such claims, without modern scholarship to confirm it--and by "scholarship", I mean the reputable kind, not conspiracy stuff or what pours out of the mumbo-jumbo crowd. That era was horribly infected with a great deal of blind, unsubstantiable speculation based on the flimsiest excuse for "evidence". What OTHER evidence for this alleged "Ba'al fire" connection to St. John's Eve is there? This horrible excuse for a "book" is so badly "researched" that it thinks that Beltaine has something to do with Ba'al. That's a piece of utter twaddle that any linguist can easily dismiss. Like I said, it's as pig-ignorant as claiming "Easter = Ishtar".

Beltaine is from two Indo-European roots; *bhel- (pale, bright) and *tepn- (warm, warmth--controversial attribution, though). An edition of the Oxford English dictionary states: "The rubbish about Baal, Bel, Belus, imported into the word from the Old Testament and classical antiquity is outside the scope of scientific etymology."

Bonfires are universal. Ba'al's followers allegedly lit bonfires. Does that mean that Ba'al worship is universal? No. Ba'al's followers wore clothes. All cultures have some equivalent to clothing. Therefore, all cultures, because they use something like clothing, worship Ba'al? I think not.

Some forms of "scholarship" are akin to riding a motorcycle with your mouth open--one ends up swallowing any old thing that happens to randomly fly in.

 

[BryanMaloney]

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Baal the Canaanite word for the supreme being?

Not quite--it's the word for "lord", but not as people have restricted the word in the modern day. It's "lord" in the older sense, as "Lord of Somesuchtown". Thus, the "Ba'al" of the Old Testament was not a universal god but was merely the "Lord of" whatever local non-Hebrew town that the Hebrews were having trouble with, or maybe the local pagan king's favorite god. It isn't even a name. Lots of pagan Semitic gods were also called "Ba'al".

 

[dfreybur]

The lighting of bonfires on a specific night is practiced in a very large number of cultures. Who is so daft as to suggest that this means EVERYBODY AROUND THE WORLD worshiped some obscure pagan Semitic deity?

The pre-conversion Romans mapped the deities followed in conquered lands to their own. They may well have equated Ba'al with Vulcan and Cisnerous with Vulcan and link them in two steps. If you chose to call those ancient Romans daft I'm with you on that conclusion. I'll go so far as to insert Monty Python and the Life of Brian reference here. Bloody Romans ...

That's as silly as the tired old lie that the entire holiday of "Easter" is based on Ishtar merely because there is a coincidental resemblance between the two names.

The word Easter comes from the Anglo-Saxon deity Ostara. Does it make sense to say modern Americans who celebrate Easter do so in honor of Ostara? The vast majority of the population hasn't even looked up the origin of the word and learned a completely different meaning.

 

[BryanMaloney]

The pre-conversion Romans mapped the deities followed in conquered lands to their own. They may well have equated Ba'al with Vulcan and Cisnerous with Vulcan and link them in two steps.

Of course, the Romans didn't make that particular connection. Ba'al was interpreted as Saturn by the Romans, while Cernunnos was identified with Mercury.

The word Easter comes from the Anglo-Saxon deity Ostara. Does it make sense to say modern Americans who celebrate Easter do so in honor of Ostara? The vast majority of the population hasn't even looked up the origin of the word and learned a completely different meaning.

Bingo! Even moreso, Easter comes from "Eostermonat", which means "Ostara's month", but even the Venerable Bede, who is the source for the attribution, never claimed that the locals actually worshipped Ostara at the time the name was transferred. It's like saying that Americans all worship Frigga/Freya because one of our major social days is "Black Friday", and Friday is named for one or both of those Scandinavian goddesses.

 

[widows son]

"Not quite--it's the word for "lord", but not as people have restricted the word in the modern day. It's "lord" in the older sense, as "Lord of Somesuchtown". Thus, the "Ba'al" of the Old Testament was not a universal god but was merely the "Lord of" whatever local non-Hebrew town that the Hebrews were having trouble with, or maybe the local pagan king's favorite god. It isn't even a name. Lots of pagan Semitic gods were also called "Ba'al"."

- Gotcha.
In your last sentence you mentioned Baal as the name of numerous pagan Semitic deities, or a pagan Semitic kings favorite god, but isn't that true with the rulers themselves? I've read they would attach Baal to the end of their name to signify their status as a lord.

 

[widows son]

Bro. Byron Upton invited me to his Facebook debate group about Masonic regularity, and there are a lot of guys on there, mostly irregular or clandestine, who believe in mystic roots that masonry has to the moors. Same with Egypt as the home of Africans and the Royal DNA (this is a common statement made)

 

[Bro Asad]

Idries Shah demonstrates that many Sufi practices can be found in Masonry - but not all Sufis are Moors.

I don't think any Sufi's are Moors. I've been to a meeting of a chartered Moorish Science Temple of America, they practice a 'altered' version of Islam claiming Noble Drew Ali to be the last prophet whereas Sufism, to my understanding base their beliefs on the more widely accepted form of Islam, partaking in the spiritual or mystical aspect of the religion. The gentlemen at the meeting I went to though.. Very knowledgeable on the history of the world, and the many differing views of it

 

[jwhoff]

Were there enough interest and knowledge, I would like to see a thread opened on Sufi Islam.

This thread is too interesting. Many angles to discuss and probe. Still more to identify. Please keep it up.

 

[Warrior1256]

The document has some good and bad points. Its claim that Thomas Jefferson was a Mason does not help. Lots of folks would love evidence that he was a Mason but no such evidence ever appears. Its description of Washington and Franklin as "high level Masons" whatever that means does not help either.

I may be wrong but whenever I see statements like this in an article then, to me, all claims it makes are suspect.

 

[hanzosbm]

I recently came across some theories about a Moorish connection by way of the Templars. It was an interesting connection of dots with some pretty big leaps in between. I'll admit, however, to it pointing out a few things that are not easily explained away.

The basics are that Hugues de Payens' coat of arms had 3 Moorish heads on it and the theory is that he was taught by Moorish Sufis and then formed the Templars and continued the mystical teachings which eventually found its way to Freemasonry.

I'm not saying I believe it, but there are some theories out there.