Freemasonry is German?

Discussion in 'History and Research' started by hanzosbm, Jul 28, 2016.

  1. hanzosbm

    hanzosbm Premium Member

    806
    657
    113
    Warrior1256 likes this.
  2. JamestheJust

    JamestheJust Registered User

    1,808
    561
    113
    It is good to broaden discussion of the roots of Masonry beyond Britain. It would be even better to include countries beyond Europe.
     
  3. hanzosbm

    hanzosbm Premium Member

    806
    657
    113
    While I think that this is an interesting idea, I'm trying to verify a number of the claims in this article independently and am coming up short. It seems that there was a grouping of various "lodges" for the building of the Strasbourg Cathedral in 1275(ish) which could be considered a kind of grand lodge, but I can't find much more than that.

    The Brother-Book of 1563 is definitely interesting, and that fact that it discusses secret grips and greetings is, as far as I know, the first of it's kind. The Strasburg Constitutions of 1459 are also very interesting and has echoes of our current practices (or vice versa). There is also evidence of non-operative royal supporters/members of lodges, but to claim that this is a speculative beginning is really reaching.

    Overall, I'd say that it is an interesting idea and deserves consideration. After all, even the early British legends claim that craft came from Charlemagne. Maybe, figuratively, they were talking about the idea of fraternity coming from Germany.
     
    Chaz likes this.
  4. JamestheJust

    JamestheJust Registered User

    1,808
    561
    113
    As I recall Prussia was established by the Teutonic Knights - and they seem to have had some association with the Knights Templar - both being in Palestine for the Crusades
     
  5. Warrior1256

    Warrior1256 Site Benefactor

    7,431
    3,381
    183
    Great article.
     
  6. Luigi Visentin

    Luigi Visentin Registered User

    136
    37
    28
    It is an interesting article but, as many others, forces the connection between Steinmetz and Freemasonry. There are similar articles about the Magistri Comacini or the roman Collegia and others. It looks like the theories that explain the life on our planet as originating from a extraterrestrial source. It is not an explanation: it does not solve the problem, only move it is a region where every claim is possible and none can be demonstrated.

    The only reference to the Legend of the Craft is to the Regius manuscript in the part related to the Quatuor Coronatii. Unfortunately the claim "which are unequivocally linked to the legend of Masons under the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation, a Masonic tradition originating in Germany not Britain." is completely wrong. The first written source of the Four Crowned martyrs legend is the "Passio Sancti Sebastiani" a book dated around V century, that is much before the "Holy Roman Empire (Germanic)". The version told by Regius is the one of Jacobus de Voragine who however has taken his story from the Passio mentionned above. Moreover, according to the Christian tradition the relics of the martyrs were translated to the Basilica dei Quattro Coronati in Rome in the IX century. Unfrotunately, the Holy Roman Empire (Germanic) is dated 962, that is about one century after.

    Stone mason guilds were diffused all over Europe and many of them had some similarities with some elements of Freemasonry tradition. However also the Worshipful Company of Mason of London has no direct proof of a connection between them and the Craft.
     
    Chaz and Ripcord22A like this.
  7. hanzosbm

    hanzosbm Premium Member

    806
    657
    113
    I could be wrong ( I don't want to speak for the author) but I believe that the claim regarding the legend coming from the Holy Roman Empire isn't talking about the Four Crowned Martyrs, but rather of Charles the Bald, which goes back to the Cooke Manuscript.

    Fast forward a few years and you've got the Grand Lodge Manuscript #1 which names Charlemagne as the first European Mason.

    As for your dating of the Holy Roman Empire, I believe that you're using the dating under Otto I when it was revived. I suspect the author was referring to its inception under Charlemagne in 800.
     
    Chaz likes this.
  8. Luigi Visentin

    Luigi Visentin Registered User

    136
    37
    28
    The complete quote is:

    "1. That the Regius Manuscript, the Oldest (reputable) surviving Masonic text in Britain, makes reference to the four crowned martyrs, which are unequivocally linked to the legend of Masons under the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation, a Masonic tradition originating in Germany not Britain"

    I could have perhaps misinterpreted the phrase, but the author makes a connection between a roman time legend and some middle age legends about german masons. Non only this connection must be demonstrated but surely are the german legends that have been inspired by the one of the four crowned, not the vice versa. In any case the Regius makes a clear reference to the Legenda Sanctorum of Jacobus de Voragine, mispelled as "legent of scanctorum".

    The "Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation" is only the one of Otto, not the one of Charlemagne. Moreover is a very late definition (a short check has given the date of 1512, diet of Cologne). Ask to a German for reference :D!
     
  9. hanzosbm

    hanzosbm Premium Member

    806
    657
    113
    Ah, I see what you're saying now. Yes, I agree, that is quite confusing. I don't understand what the author is claiming regarding the link between the 4 crowned martyrs and the Holy Roman Empire.

    That being said, you're claim that the Holy Roman Empire was not ruled by Charlemagne confuses me. Is it because the term Holy Roman Empire wasn't adopted until later? If that's the case, okay, fine, he was the Roman Emperor then according to his exact title, but that's a little misleading.
     
  10. dfreybur

    dfreybur Premium Member

    3,921
    2,385
    133
    As all of us fans of Star Trek - The Original Series know - It was inwented in Russia.
     
    hanzosbm likes this.
  11. JamestheJust

    JamestheJust Registered User

    1,808
    561
    113
    A bit tangential, but the Mithraic brethren were known as the brotherhood of the grip. The Mithraic mysteries were practiced in the Roman army.

    [​IMG]


    The column of rocks depicted above, in the Sumerian tradition (Abraham was from Sumer) may be called Ea Gub (pillar/altar dedicated to Ea) from which we get the legend of Yacov/Jacob dreaming on his stone pillow - the mysterious porphyry stone - seeing the angels going to and coming from heaven.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2016
  12. KSigMason

    KSigMason Traveling Templar Site Benefactor

    1,015
    215
    133
    I did an article on the Teutonic Knights a couple years ago: http://www.travelingtemplar.com/2014/09/teutonic-knights.html
     
    Classical and Chaz like this.
  13. Luigi Visentin

    Luigi Visentin Registered User

    136
    37
    28
    Not exactly. Both were defined "Holy Roman Empire" but the "Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation" is only the second one. The second connected itself to the first (the Carolingian one) and the Carolingian was considered to be the one which continued the tradition of Western Roman Empire.
     
  14. hanzosbm

    hanzosbm Premium Member

    806
    657
    113
    I see, and I understand now. Thank you for educating me on this.
     
  15. Ben_Zanaatkar

    Ben_Zanaatkar Banned

    44
    0
    6
    Absolutely right!
    Masonry is German.
    King of Prussia Frederick The Great was the -- Most Important Figure in Masonic development.

    And George I, Hanoverian King was in power when Premier Grand Lodge of England was established.

    Germans have helped Jews pretty much.
     
  16. Elexir

    Elexir Registered User

    776
    587
    93
    Funny enough, jews where actully not allowed to join most lodges in Germany.
     
  17. Ben_Zanaatkar

    Ben_Zanaatkar Banned

    44
    0
    6
    Dude,
    Jews are the Creators of Masonry.
     
  18. Winter

    Winter Premium Member

    776
    913
    113
    No. Check your facts on that one. Jews were not even permitted to join the craft until relatively recently. And Germany was a haven of Judaism until that little incident a few decades ago.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
     
  19. Ben_Zanaatkar

    Ben_Zanaatkar Banned

    44
    0
    6
    What "incident"?
    I just can't understand:
    Why to reject obvious things!?
    When information is in official sources!
    Albert Pike. "Ordo ab chao. The Original Rituals on first Supreme Council".
    Last chapter: initiation to 33° degree.
    Grand Inspector representing Frederick The Great. And there is -- Tetragrammaton YHWH on his forehead.
    How you say: "No"?!
     
  20. Winter

    Winter Premium Member

    776
    913
    113
    Really? LoL. Pike's writing isn't sacrosanct or an "official" source. Even a cursory investigation into the founding of Freemasonry will prove that our origin myths are just that. Allegorical stories to help us form a common framework of morality.

    As for the incident in Germany when they weren't very friendly to Jews, I am referring to 1935-1945.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
     

Share My Freemasonry