GLofCA - Recognition clean up - Same agreement everywhere

[dfreybur]

Last night I put into the mail the following legislation for Grand Lodge in California. I expect this item to be unopposed at my lodge and get at least the 3 signatures there. I have no idea it the legal folks will object to what I consider fair and simple.

I urge any Brother whose jurisdiction recognizes PHA by any sort of agreement other than "full and traditional recognition" to put forward legislation to make our recognition to be the same as all other recognition.


Resolution to present at Annual Communication of the Grand Lodge of California, October 28-30, 2016

Resolution submitted by Douglas J Freyburger PM Pasadena 272 and approved by the undersigned.

Whereas it has been more than twenty years since the Most Worshipful Prince Hall Grand Lodge of California and Hawaii was recognized, and

Whereas the compact used at that time was more restrictive than the full and customary recognition granted to all other jurisdictions thus establishing a second class citizenship status, and

Whereas it is not in line with our Masonic principles to establish inequality among sovereign jurisdictions, therefore

Be it resolved that the Grand Secretary send notice of full and customary recognition to all Prince Hall jurisdictions currently listed as having mutual recognition in place or having been offered mutual recognition.

Respectfully submitted,
Douglas John Freyburger PM Pasadena 272
February 12th 2016


Justification associated with the resolution –

The original recognition compact was between the Grand Lodge of California and a jurisdiction that has since split into the Most Worshipful Prince Hall Grand Lodge of California and the Most Worshipful Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Hawaii. Now that the original jurisdiction no longer exists it makes sense to review the compact as it is now used for other Prince Hall jurisdictions.

The original recognition compact includes a restriction from affiliation, but there are other jurisdictions in the world who only support single membership affiliation and our recognition of those jurisdictions did not need to include that wording. The Grand Lodge of California has no reason to include a restriction towards any one jurisdiction that does not apply to all jurisdictions in the world.

The current list as published each year tracks which Prince Hall jurisdictions have responded with mutual recognition. Granting this type of blanket recognition means the Grand Secretary no longer needs to track which jurisdictions have responded. Multiple states already grant blanket recognition without tracking responses – At least Illinois, Connecticut, Nebraska, Colorado, Washington, Idaho, DC, New Hampshire and Nevada.

Full and traditional recognition is the type granted to all other jurisdictions in the world so it should be the type granted to Prince Hall jurisdictions.

 

[Glen Cook]

I understand the egalitarian sense underlying the proposal, but what if the sovereign PHA GL does not wish customary terms? Is this not insensitive to their desires?

Note, I did just this when PHA NC came into amity with its SGL counterpart

 

[dfreybur]

I understand the egalitarian sense underlying the proposal, but what if the sovereign PHA GL does not wish customary terms? Is this not insensitive to their desires?

Note, I did just this when PHA NC came into amity with its SGL counterpart

West Virginia does not allow dual affiliation. They have full and traditional recognition. It's up to them to handle their own restrictions should any incoming Brother petition one of their lodges.

Why would someone's request for second class treatment be a reason for me to treat them worse? We've on the level and even if you don't want that it's still how I should act.

Besides, they can always turn us down. In which case it becomes clear who is the one who has the problem. Hence my challenge to everyone in all jurisdictions that use second class status.

 

[Glen Cook]

West Virginia does not allow dual affiliation. They have full and traditional recognition. It's up to them to handle their own restrictions should any incoming Brother petition one of their lodges.

Why would someone's request for second class treatment be a reason for me to treat them worse? We've on the level and even if you don't want that it's still how I should act.

Besides, they can always turn us down. In which case it becomes clear who is the one who has the problem. Hence my challenge to everyone in all jurisdictions that use second class status.

I didn't mean to address affiliation.

Doesn't full recognition imply access by your members to their lodges?

 

[dfreybur]

Doesn't full recognition imply access by your members to their lodges?

Full recognition implies access by their members to your lodges. Notice the difference in direction based on who is granting the recognition. It is not automatically in both directions. For jurisdictions that allow dual affiliation, full recognition includes that option. For jurisdictions that require single affiliation only, full recognition does not include that option. The granting jurisdiction has no reason to track, as in the case of California recognizing West Virginia.

Some jurisdictions extend offers of mutual recognition and then track responses. Some jurisdictions grant unilateral recognition and don't track responses.

There is plenty of precedent for unilateral recognition. http://bessel.org/masrec/phablanket.htm gives a list for one branch of our family.

Among PHA jurisdictions so far the one I know about is MWPHGLofAR granted blanket recognition by edict about two years ago. Right now PHA Arkansas unilaterally recognizes all three of my jurisdictions without that recognition being returned. I know of no one who complained, just jurisdictions that didn't react.

 

[MasonicAdept]

I didn't mean to address affiliation.

Doesn't full recognition imply access by your members to their lodges?

Not exactly. There are Jurisdictions that have MUTUAL RECOGNITION, but no intervisitation.
I believe that both parties would have to participate in the Recognition process, but visitation would be a negotiated component of Mutual Recognition, it can be a part of it or not.

In my estimation, Recognition without intervisitation handicaps the Mutual Recognition.

 

[Bloke]

... There are Jurisdictions that have MUTUAL RECOGNITION, but no intervisitation.....

.
That's close to pointless unless an interim period to sort rules out... but there's no "grades" of recognition - either you are or are not Freemasons in amity and if so, you should be able to visit..

It's official. American Freemasons are weird

 

[Brother JC]

It's official. American Freemasons are weird

A hundred-odd Grand Lodges that can't agree on much of anything... a recipe for weirdness.

 

[Bro. David F. Hill]

In the state of Texas we had recognition without visitation from 2007 through 2014. At the end of 2014 both Grand Lodges agreed and approved recognition with visitation. The Grand Lodges that either have just recognition without visitation or no recognition at all are all in the South. Conversely, Minnesota has dual membership. They are the only one.

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[Warrior1256]

West Virginia does not allow dual affiliation.

My home state. Luckily I waited until I moved to Kentucky to become a Mason.

There are Jurisdictions that have MUTUAL RECOGNITION, but no intervisitation.

That's the way it is in Kentucky at this time.

 

[Brother_Steve]

We have full recognition and visitation.

Except on MM degree nights (shh)

 

[Ripcord22A]

Except on MM degree nights (shh)

what do you mean? you cant see their degrees and they cant see yours? what state are you in Bro?

 

[Glen Cook]

Not exactly. There are Jurisdictions that have MUTUAL RECOGNITION, but no intervisitation.
I believe that both parties would have to participate in the Recognition process, but visitation would be a negotiated component of Mutual Recognition, it can be a part of it or not.

In my estimation, Recognition without intervisitation handicaps the Mutual Recognition.

Different word. I was quoting the word "full", not mutual.

 

[Brother_Steve]

what do you mean? you cant see their degrees and they cant see yours? what state are you in Bro?

I'm under the Grand Lodge of New Jersey, F & AM

Each lodge has the right to refuse visitors. A Mason under the Jurisdiction of the Grand Lodge of New Jersey will not be accepted to sit during a Master Mason Degree in a PHA Lodge. They do things differently (but still respectfully) that we are told not to do (of which I think takes something away from the experience) so there is an unwritten agreement between the two GLs when it comes to a MM degree.

I'm not sure if you ever witnessed a Military or State Police Degree Team for the MM degree when raising one of their own and thought to yourself ... holy shit.

Edited: I only say this as I wanted to go visit a PHA lodge as they were having a MM degree. I was told by a Brother of my lodge who's relative is a PHA mason that we would not be allowed to sit during that degree. He explained why (of which I wont go into detail here) but I think the Master Masons that post here can figure it out easily enough based on the above.

 

[Kenneth NC Mason]

I'm under the Grand Lodge of New Jersey, F & AM

Each lodge has the right to refuse visitors. A Mason under the Jurisdiction of the Grand Lodge of New Jersey will not be accepted to sit during a Master Mason Degree in a PHA Lodge. They do things differently (but still respectfully) that we are told not to do (of which I think takes something away from the experience) so there is an unwritten agreement between the two GLs when it comes to a MM degree.

I'm not sure if you ever witnessed a Military or State Police Degree Team for the MM degree when raising one of their own and thought to yourself ... holy shit.

Edited: I only say this as I wanted to go visit a PHA lodge as they were having a MM degree. I was told by a Brother of my lodge who's relative is a PHA mason that we would not be allowed to sit during that degree. He explained why (of which I wont go into detail here) but I think the Master Masons that post here can figure it out easily enough based on the above.

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[Kenneth NC Mason]

I find that interesting

I've been to Prince Hall Third Degrees here in NC and it's quite a sight. I won't go into details but they definitely turn it up a notch lol


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[Bloke]

I'm under the Grand Lodge of New Jersey, F & AM

Each lodge has the right to refuse visitors. A Mason under the Jurisdiction of the Grand Lodge of New Jersey will not be accepted to sit during a Master Mason Degree in a PHA Lodge. They do things differently (but still respectfully) that we are told not to do (of which I think takes something away from the experience) so there is an unwritten agreement between the two GLs when it comes to a MM degree.

I'm not sure if you ever witnessed a Military or State Police Degree Team for the MM degree when raising one of their own and thought to yourself ... holy shit.

Edited: I only say this as I wanted to go visit a PHA lodge as they were having a MM degree. I was told by a Brother of my lodge who's relative is a PHA mason that we would not be allowed to sit during that degree. He explained why (of which I wont go into detail here) but I think the Master Masons that post here can figure it out easily enough based on the above.

The most serious trial I've heard of is on the Philippines.... they take their Ruffianing seriously there I hear from those raised there....

 

[Bloke]

( and that's one of the great values of visiting... realising there's not just 1 way to do these things...)

 

[Brother_Steve]

The most serious trial I've heard of is on the Philippines.... they take their Ruffianing seriously there I hear from those raised there....

which I don't get the visitation issue. I can go to another PHA lodge out of state and watch it.

Does the leadership think that my mind is erased when I cross back over the bridge to get into Jersey? It is what it is though. Got to respect it.

 

[Kenneth NC Mason]

Brother Steve

I agree with you it is confusing

I read a NJ Freemason magazine issue from 2012 that confirmed what you were saying about going to a NJ PHA MM degree not being allowed...apparently there are reasons but ones that aren't very comfortable being discussed

I will say though, having been to a NC Prince Hall Third Degree..you WILL notice some differences...and depending on which lodge you go to some of them may be shocking...I don't feel computable going into much detail since this isn't a Tyled form but anyone who's been to one should know what I'm alluding to


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