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Greetings from Portugal

D

DanielR

Registered User
Hello my Brothers. I'm a 34-year-old Entered Apprentice from Lisbon and would like to extend a very fraternal greeting to all. Having gotten my a academic degrees in Philosophy, I found in Freemasonry a welcoming home for my contemplative propensities, and since I was initiated I have found in my reading and writing on all aspects of masonic symbolism and in conversations with my Brothers a great source of inspirarion personal development. I would not have thought it before I joined, in truth. The avenues for personal enlightenment and research that the this path opens are really the only masonic secrets anyone should be interested in.

And I thought I'd share a picture of a very informal gathering in our Temple in which we all just watched a video on Freemasonry around the world and then talked about it, sharing ideas, thoughts and experiences. Not a bad way to spend an evening.

If you're ever in this corner of Europe, consider yourselves welcome!
20180227_213643.jpg


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Glen Cook

Glen Cook

G A Cook
Site Benefactor
DanielR said:
Yes, I am well aware. My Grand Lodge is new. But a brother is a brother so even if you cannot visit my lodge, I can still buy you a beer.

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Well, no, it is not because your Grand Lodge is new. We have new grand lodges that are recognised. It is because your grand lodge was not, in our view, properly founded.
And, while all human beings are brothers, we are not Masonic brothers.
 
D

DanielR

Registered User
Glen Cook said:
Well, no, it is not because your Grand Lodge is new. We have new grand lodges that are recognised. It is because your grand lodge was not, in our view, properly founded.
And, while all human beings are brothers, we are not Masonic brothers.
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I am not interested in politics, though I know full well what you are referring to. I chose my Grand Lodge after careful consideration for reasons which I would explain to you if you considered yourself my Masonic brother, but since you do not, I will respectfully return to silence and keep the beer offer on the table as a human brother.

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Glen Cook

Glen Cook

G A Cook
Site Benefactor
DanielR said:
I am not interested in politics, though I know full well what you are referring to. I chose my Grand Lodge after careful consideration for reasons which I would explain to you if you considered yourself my Masonic brother, but since you do not, I will respectfully return to silence and keep the beer offer on the table as a human brother.

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Indeed, some people do make an educated choice, and I do not quarrel with that choice. However, I have obligations and duties to note the choice so mistakes are not made. Again, all are welcome here, and I think many would be interested in your decision making.
 
D

DanielR

Registered User
Another tale for another time, I believe, my dear Glen. All I can tell you is that I refused all previous invitations from other more well established Portuguese Grand Lodges. Though I am an Entered Apprentice, I have known freemasons all my life. Upon learning of this Grand Lodge, I took it upon myself to seek to join it out in hopes of being accepted in it. Now that I have, I would not switch for any reason, least of which political. I am a freemason, as are my brothers who have been freemasons for decades and joined this Grand Lodge for similar reasons as my own.

International recognition will come in due time. Or not. The fact of the matter is I don't really care. I know the reality of Portugal and have made my decision on sound reasons and reasoning, and on my knowledge, shared by many, of what Freemasonry is and should be. I am happy to know I belong to Regular Grand Lodge, and to those who don't believe that to be true, I will respect you nevertheless, and will observe my duties towards you as a freemason whether or not you recognize me as one.

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Bloke

Bloke

Premium Member
DanielR said:
I am not interested in politics, though I know full well what you are referring to. I chose my Grand Lodge after careful consideration for reasons which I would explain to you if you considered yourself my Masonic brother, but since you do not, I will respectfully return to silence and keep the beer offer on the table as a human brother.

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Click to expand...
I'm Australian. We generally always respond favourably to offers of beer.

What attracted you to this Grand Lodge over the others that most of us would be in amity with ?
 
D

DanielR

Registered User
It is difficult to discuss this issue without naming names amd telling tales, which I will not do, and even more difficult to understand it watching from afar. In simplified terms, the Grand Lodge of Portugal which you are in amity with is in enormous internal strife and public controversy. The Masters who got together to create the Grand Lodge I am a member of were either expelled from it or joined those who were expelled out of solidarity, and this happened for reasons which are known to the public. The Grand Lodge you are in amity with saw his Vice Grand Master being expelled just this month under accusations of treason (not surprisingly, they are on the brink of elections). Finally, that Grand Lodge has well established ties with Portuguese politics and politicians, which I do not feel comfortable with as a citizen. And of course, there was the issue of the creation of the Portuguese Rite, which I will not get into, but which I will say became very ugly and petty.

The men who split from this Grand Lodge to create the new Grand Lodge in 2016 (the one I chose to join) have been freemasons for decades in some cases. They knew very well that they would not be immediately recognized by other Grand Lodges (though that is changing, in France for instance). They did it anyway to return to the principles of speculative freemasonry and move away from political and antimasonic convulsions and power trips that continue to this day to blemish the name of Freemasonry in my country's public eye.

Now, I am a trained philosopher, which means I am not swayed by fallacious reasoning. You cannot pull the wool over my eyes. I cannot therefore belong to a Grand Lodge whose echelon I do not believe (with notable exceptions, of course) to be composed of true freemasons regardless of their rhetoric. I feel very comfortable calling myself a brother of these men of character I know, brave and honest all, who left the warmth of international amity so as to preserve their integrity as and that of Portuguese Freemasonry and democracy. I have learned great lessons in humility from its wise Worshipful Masters, and from the Grand Master who I am proud and honored to have as a brother.

So my friends, I reiterate: I will hope that the truth will become more obvious in the time to come, and that my Grand Lodge will one day be recognized by what it already is and has been from its inception - a bastion of masonic principles and regularity. Until then, myself and its members will continue to treat all freemasons as brothers, even when it is not mutual such as is the case here, and will be there whenever any of you is in need - even if only of a beer. Dixit.

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Glen Cook

Glen Cook

G A Cook
Site Benefactor
Well, at the moment I am next door in España, and have attended the the GL in Portugal and visited with the Grand secretary and grand master last month.

Certainly, there can be sufficient disruption in a GL to cause a suspension of recognition, as seen with GLNF.

By treason, I think you mean in terms of Masonic law, correct? I’m aware of US GLs expelling a DGM or even GM. Previously, that has not been sufficient to cause a withdrawal of recognition.

Beginning a new Grand Lodge with expelled Masons is problematic. That was one of the issues with the lack of recognition of Liechtenstein.

I’m unaware of any fallacious reasoning in this conversation, and such comments are usually not helpful. It is better to point out the error in reasoning and explain why it is thought to be error.

Which University did you attend? Do you teach now?
 
Bloke

Bloke

Premium Member
DanielR said:
It is difficult to discuss this issue without naming names amd telling tales, which I will not do, and even more difficult to understand it watching from afar. In simplified terms, the Grand Lodge of Portugal which you are in amity with is in enormous internal strife and public controversy. The Masters who got together to create the Grand Lodge I am a member of were either expelled from it or joined those who were expelled out of solidarity, and this happened for reasons which are known to the public. The Grand Lodge you are in amity with saw his Vice Grand Master being expelled just this month under accusations of treason (not surprisingly, they are on the brink of elections). Finally, that Grand Lodge has well established ties with Portuguese politics and politicians, which I do not feel comfortable with as a citizen. And of course, there was the issue of the creation of the Portuguese Rite, which I will not get into, but which I will say became very ugly and petty.

The men who split from this Grand Lodge to create the new Grand Lodge in 2016 (the one I chose to join) have been freemasons for decades in some cases. They knew very well that they would not be immediately recognized by other Grand Lodges (though that is changing, in France for instance). They did it anyway to return to the principles of speculative freemasonry and move away from political and antimasonic convulsions and power trips that continue to this day to blemish the name of Freemasonry in my country's public eye.

Now, I am a trained philosopher, which means I am not swayed by fallacious reasoning. You cannot pull the wool over my eyes. I cannot therefore belong to a Grand Lodge whose echelon I do not believe (with notable exceptions, of course) to be composed of true freemasons regardless of their rhetoric. I feel very comfortable calling myself a brother of these men of character I know, brave and honest all, who left the warmth of international amity so as to preserve their integrity as and that of Portuguese Freemasonry and democracy. I have learned great lessons in humility from its wise Worshipful Masters, and from the Grand Master who I am proud and honored to have as a brother.

So my friends, I reiterate: I will hope that the truth will become more obvious in the time to come, and that my Grand Lodge will one day be recognized by what it already is and has been from its inception - a bastion of masonic principles and regularity. Until then, myself and its members will continue to treat all freemasons as brothers, even when it is not mutual such as is the case here, and will be there whenever any of you is in need - even if only of a beer. Dixit.

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Click to expand...

Thanks for the long reply. I think following your conscience appears sound, and to all, I wish them well, and a path of virtue.

I know nothing of the situation you describe, but as Bro Glenn alludes to, GLs do loose recognition if they are seen as "disrupted" which I read as corrupt or not confirming to shared values, but sometimes sovereignty is also recognized as a factor to continue recognition. Only time will tell, but regardless of which GL we belong to, let's hope we're employing Freemasonry in our lives to improve our character and the lives of those around us.

I note again your mention of beer. I offer you a *cyber beer*.... but I must ask, "Dixit" at the end of your message is not something I understand...
 
D

DanielR

Registered User
Glen Cook said:
Well, at the moment I am next door in España, and have attended the the GL in Portugal and visited with the Grand secretary and grand master last month.

Certainly, there can be sufficient disruption in a GL to cause a suspension of recognition, as seen with GLNF.

By treason, I think you mean in terms of Masonic law, correct? I’m aware of US GLs expelling a DGM or even GM. Previously, that has not been sufficient to cause a withdrawal of recognition.

Beginning a new Grand Lodge with expelled Masons is problematic. That was one of the issues with the lack of recognition of Liechtenstein.

I’m unaware of any fallacious reasoning in this conversation, and such comments are usually not helpful. It is better to point out the error in reasoning and explain why it is thought to be error.

Which University did you attend? Do you teach now?
Click to expand...
Let me start from the end. When speaking of fallacious reasoning I was not referring to this conversation - which would have been wrong and disrespectful - but to arguments that have been presented by the Portuguese Grand Lodge in question which has expelled or suspended an inordinate amount of masters in its recent past (more tham 10 now for differentbut related reasons).

Secondly, not all founders of the new Grand Lodge were expelled. Most followed those who were expelled for ethical reasons. I am not aware of the situation of Liechtenstein but I would hesitate to compare realities of two such different countries.

The VGM who was recently expelled had intentions to run for Grand Master, and the current Grand Master was not happy with that. The same happened with the current Grand Master of my Grand Lodge just before he was expelled. It doesn't take much to see a pattern emerging, though there were certainly other issues involved in the matter. If you wish to know more of the most recent expulsion, you will find it here. The whole story is of course not told here but it is not far off from what the news article says: http://visao.sapo.pt/actualidade/po...re-acusa-vice-de-falta-de-lealdade-e-demite-o.

Sorry, it's in Portuguese.

This turmoil has been very public and it keeps on growing. I hope for the sake of Freemasonry that the true freemasons in that Grand Lodge come together and find a solution. Until such a time, I am sure more people will be expelled for "lack of loyalty" or outright "treason" against the Grand Master. I will not have my name associated with such an organisation, as many of my brothers would not.

I attended Nova University of Lisbon, where I got my Ba and Ma in Contemporary Philosophy. Quit my PhD halfway through to work in Africa. I am Deputy Principal of an international school in Lisbon now so I don't do much teaching anymore. I was a researcher of Philosophy of Mind for several years but my passion is Education so I only philosophize for kicks nowadays.





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D

DanielR

Registered User
Bloke said:
Thanks for the long reply. I think following your conscience appears sound, and to all, I wish them well, and a path of virtue.

I know nothing of the situation you describe, but as Bro Glenn alludes to, GLs do loose recognition if they are seen as "disrupted" which I read as corrupt or not confirming to shared values, but sometimes sovereignty is also recognized as a factor to continue recognition. Only time will tell, but regardless of which GL we belong to, let's hope we're employing Freemasonry in our lives to improve our character and the lives of those around us.

I note again your mention of beer. I offer you a *cyber beer*.... but I must ask, "Dixit" at the end of your message is not something I understand...
Click to expand...
You are right, only time will tell and Freemasonry should be above these petty wars.

I thank younfor the cyber beer! Got any cyber wine? I am, after all, Portuguese, so given a choice I will take the latter. And "Dixit" is just a Latin formula used when you finish a rant. It means "I have said".

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Warrior1256

Warrior1256

Site Benefactor
Thank you for your detailed reasoning for joining the GL that you currently belong to. It explains a lot. I look forward to your postings.
LK600 said:
Beer? ...did someone say beer?

In the support of free beer... I can drink with brothers or friends any time. ;)
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Lol....I'm with you Brother.
 
V

vinceatwork

Registered User
Hi Brother Daniel,

I will take you up on your offer of wine, if the GAOTU graces me with enough health to come to Europe and visit my brothers and friends in several Jurisdictions, some of which are recognized by (in Amity with) one of my two Grand Lodges, some with/by the other.

There is a movement started some 10-15 years ago in Europe, to unite all Masons in friendship, regardless of (political) recognition/regularity/liberality etc. to which you may find consonance, as I do.

You can read more about it here:

http://www.freemasonryresearchforumqsa.com/the-timehascome-to-speak.php

Mantenha-se bem, irmão!
 
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