Illegal immigrants plan to leave over Ariz. law

Discussion in 'The Refreshment Lounge' started by Blake Bowden, Apr 30, 2010.

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  1. Blake Bowden

    Blake Bowden Administrator Staff Member

  2. JTM

    JTM "Just in case" Premium Member

  3. TexMass

    TexMass Registered User

    In 2009, the state of AZ actually recorded a decline in Illegal immagrants from 2000. In 2000 they processed and returned nearly 750,000, in 2009 it was nearly 250,000.
  4. Bro. Stewart P.M.

    Bro. Stewart P.M. Lead Moderator Emeritus Staff Member

    "Illegal immigrants plan to leave over Ariz. law"

    I am still trying to figure out the downside to this artical tittle... it's about time there was some POSITIVE media reporting on the national news feeds!!

    For those of you who do not have the pleasure of me as a "friend" on FaceBook I'll share my recent status message:

    "Voters up in arms over immigraton laws?? It is all really simple. Get here legally, or get the hell out! I can not afford to pay for you when you choose to stay here illegally!!! ~ That is all."

    Yeah, yeah I know... I should be more sympathetic to the immigration issue. The fact of the matter is illegal immigration is not racial, laws are un-biased. My fore-fathers came here legally along with many others through Ellis Island legally. I expect, no I demand that everyone benefiting from living here in the USA go through the same proceedures and legal hurdles as my ancestors did. Honestly people, I do not believe that this is too much to ask for. This country can not afford to turn its back in this issue....
  5. Ben Rodriguez

    Ben Rodriguez Registered User

    I am an immigrant. I've lived in this country since I was a child. I pay my taxes every year, hold a very rewarding job and nobody in my family has a criminal background. I understand not everyone coming to this country has the same mind set that other families have. I have said it before, a fair reform needs to be put in place, a reform that will screen every newcomer and existing residents. My two oldest brothers still live in Arizona and I would hate to hear they are being harassed simply because of the color of their skin. I attended the march in downtown Dallas yesterday, it was an emotional event, seeing over 25,000 people gathered for one common goal and the anti immigrant groups with very hateful signs. Luckily, my people knew how to behave and ignored the opposing protesters. I hope and pray every single day towards an agreement, I don't want to waste any energy being mad and furious at the opposition, It's a long shot but I pray that people will learn to accept one another. No human being is illegal, undocumented should be the proper term, I get a heartache to hear or read illegal.

    That's my own humble opinion in the subject, I understand and accept that not everyone will agree and will have an answer to each one of my points.
  6. thehibster

    thehibster Registered User

    Excellent post, Brother Rodriguez.

    I find it interesting that when times are good and Americans are fat and happy, immigration is rarely discussed. When times are tough and we have to tighten our belts a little we look for someone to blame for our economic woes, and immigrants are an easy target.

    I do not pretend to have the answers and both sides of the immigration debate have some valid points, but I would urge my brothers to approach this issue with compassion and tolerance. As I sit in my air-conditioned house typing on my computer after enjoying a nice Sunday lunch with my family I wonder what dire circumstances would drive me to enter another country illegally, where I do not speak the language and will be treated as a pariah, where I will have to wait on a street corner and hope that I can earn a day's wages by the strength of my back and hopefully earn enough to provide food, clothing and shelter for my family? I doubt many native-born Americans have the mental strength and intestinal fortitude to stand in an immigrants shoes for a single day - and I think that's what really scares us. These immigrants demonstrate a hunger and desire for freedom and the chance to carve a place out in this country for themselves and their families. Long before there was an Ellis Island or any question of legal versus illegal, Europeans were streaming to the shores of this country for the very same reasons. No doubt the Native American's have long wished they were a little tougher on immigration when they first sighted those Pilgrim's ships on the horizon.

    Like it or not, we're all in this together.

  7. Blake Bowden

    Blake Bowden Administrator Staff Member

    I wanted enforcement of our immigration laws way before the economy went into the crapper. Sorry but I don't want to hear about compassion, tolerance or how noble illegals are for breaking our laws. I drove to Puerto Penasco in 2005 and can't remember how many times I was asked to produce identification. Also, guess what a gringo like me could face if I entered Mexico illegally? Try two years in prison! I support this ENFORCEMENT and hope that Texas adopts similar legislation.
  8. Bro. Stewart P.M.

    Bro. Stewart P.M. Lead Moderator Emeritus Staff Member

    Brother Ben,

    Let me retract my previous usage of the word Illegal and I will (for you) use the term Undocumented even though they both mean exactly the same thing. Being Undocumented in this country or any other for that matter is illegal. I understand that everyone really wants and desires to reap the benefits of being here in the USA, what we have is something that no other nation has... Freedom. Our Freedom comes at a price, via our lives and our money. We are not asking everyone to turn around and never return, we are asking that if you want to live here then follow the same rules as everyone else. As I mentioned before "Undocumented Immigrants" is not a Race, Color, or Religion; it is a matter of doing the right thing legally. I understand that many Undocumented workers in this country are peacable law abiding (in some aspects) citizens although I personally can not call an Undocumented citizen "law abiding" as they are not here "legally". These good Undocumented people are often times not paying Federal Taxes (also illegal) nor contributing to Welfare (via taxes). Most of these people are filling up our county hospitals and taking advantage of FREE medical care (if you don't believe me, check out Parkland Hospital) which all the other citizens of the nation are paying for.

    Bottom line is I see no grey area within this subject, this is as simple as black and white. We welcome your tired, hungry, and needy. Come on in, get in line, swear your oath, get your SSC Card, pay your Federal Taxes, & you are very welcome here in the USA. Trust me the wait in line is well worth your time!!
    Last edited: May 2, 2010
  9. david918

    david918 Premium Member

    Lets just adopt Mexico's laws.
    Let Us Adopt THEIR IMMIGRATION LAWS as our Own

    1. If you migrate to this county, you must speak the native language

    2. You have to be a professional or an investor. No unskilled workers allowed.

    3. There will be no special bilingual programs in the schools, no special ballots for elections, all government business will be conducted in our language.

    4. Foreigners will NOT have the right to vote no matter how long they are here.

    5. Foreigners will NEVER be able to hold political office.

    6. Naturalized citizens can never own property within 60 miles of any international border, seashore, nor 30 miles of any major navigable waterway leading to the open ocean.

    7. Foreigners will not be a burden to the taxpayers. No welfare, no food stamps, no health care, or other government assistance programs.

    8. Foreigners will not be granted automatic citizenship for serving in our armed forces.

    9. Foreigners who join our armed forces can never become officers.

    10. Foreigners can invest in this country, but it must be an amount equal to 40,000 times the daily minimum wage.

    11. If foreigners do come and want to buy land that will be okay, BUT options will be restricted. You are not allowed waterfront property. That is reserved for citizens naturally born into this country.

    12. Foreigners may not protest, demonstrate, wave a foreign flag, participate in political organizing, badmouthing our president or his policies, if you do you will be sent home. If you treat our flag with disrespect, mutilate or burn it, you will be arrested and may be imprisoned.

    13. If you do come to this country illegally, you will be hunted down and sent straight to jail. Eventually you will be tried and either fined, imprisoned and/or deported.

    14. If you come to this country illegally and are caught, you will automatically charged with a felony.

    15. Foreigners or naturalized citizens can never solely start or own a business. They must be partnered with at least one native citizen.

    16. Children born in our country to foreign mother are not given automatic status as a native citizen of our country.

    17. To become a native born citizen of our country, both parents must be natives of our country.

    18. Retirees to Mexico must demonstrate a monthly income 400 times the daily minimum wage of our country.

    19. Any native citizen who gives shelter, food, aid, employment, transport, care or other provision to an illegal foreigner automatically is classified as having committed a felony.

    20. A ten year term of imprisonment with no early parole or time off for good behavior will be applied to any illegal-entry foreigner caught inside our country again after he/she has been deported. Any native citizen who aids any illegal-entry foreigner will face the same term of imprisonment

    21. Foreigners may be barred from the country if their presence upsets "the equilibrium of the national demographics," when foreigners are deemed detrimental to "economic or national interests," when they do not behave like good citizens in their own country, when they have broken our laws, and when "they are not found to be physically or mentally healthy."

    22. Our Secretary of State may "suspend or prohibit the admission of foreigners when he/she determines it to be in the national interest."

    23. Federal, local and municipal police must cooperate with federal immigration authorities upon request, i.e., to assist in the arrests of illegal immigrants.

    24. Our National Population Registry keeps track of ''every person who comprises the population of the country,'' and verifies each person's identity. Our national Catalog of Foreigners tracks foreign tourists and immigrants, and assisgns each person with a uniquie tracking number. All foreigners are required to carry proper identification documents with them at all times.

    25. Foreigners who violate the terms of ther visa may be sentenced to up to six years in prison.

    26. Foreigners who misrepresent the terms of their visa while in our country, such as working without a permit, can also be imprisoned.

    27. Foreigners with legal immigration problems may be deported from our country instead of being imprisoned.

    28. Any native of our country who marries a foreigner with the sole objective of helping the foreigner live in the country is subject to up to five years in prison.

    29. Foreigners are denied equal employment rights in our country.

    30. Foreign immigrants and naturalized citizens may never become members of the clergy.

    31. Foreign immigrants and naturalized citizens will never have the same rights as native born citizens.

    32. In order to become a naturalized citizen of our country you must:
    ~ be in the country legally, and possess the government documents to prove it;
    ~ have the means to sustain themselves economically;
    ~ not destined to be a burden on our society;
    ~ must be able to communicate in our native language without access of an interpreter;
    ~ be of good character and have no criminal records;
    ~ be of economic and social benefit to our society; and
    ~ contribute to the general well being of the nation.

    33. Foreigners with fake papers or who enter the country under false pretense may be imprisoned, fined, and/or deported.

    Harsh, you say? The above laws are the immigration laws of MEXICO!
  10. Dave in Waco

    Dave in Waco Premium Member

    I am sorry, but I have to applaud Arizona for their stance on illegal aliens. I've heard the arguements for years about this group having done nothing wrong. That is a false statement. They violated the law and illegally entered the country. That is something totally different from an undocumented worker. An undocumented worker is someone in the country legally, but they do not possess a work visa. It would be the same if I were to visit Mexico on vacation. I'd be in the country legally, but I would not be allowed to work.

    I have nothing against immigrants. They feel the need to come over here and work, then apply for a work visa. In the long run that will provide more protection then risking life and limb to violate our laws to enter the country to be taken advantage of as a worker. And the Arizona law really did nothing but echo federal law as a state law. It didn't give police extra power, just defined their responsibilities as a matter of state law. Most media was not reporting the law correctly.
  11. drapetomaniac

    drapetomaniac Premium Member Premium Member

    Police didn't have the power before, which is why people are applauding it.
    That is extra power they didn't have before.

    Police are allowed to inquire immigration status based on "reasonable suspicion" and detain you until status is proven. So, if my cousin is visiting from Puerto Rico and visiting my sister in AZ, she has to carry her birth certificate and possibly other materials. If she's walking to the store and a cop becomes suspicious, and she doesn't speak English (suspicious!!), she can be detained until they decide she's an American. Meanwhile her family and kids are wondering what happened to her.

    What is reasonable suspicion?
  12. Dave in Waco

    Dave in Waco Premium Member

    Reasonable Suspicion is a legal term in which the question is asked would the average person consider it suspicious. It's applied to many criminal statues. For example, just because a person is dressed like a gang member, that isn't enough to warrant detaining and questioning him about gang activity. That's why these statues gave police no extra powers. They've always had the power to determine if an individual was in the country illegaly while verifying their identity during an investigation. The big part was they also added the phrase "legal contact". Legal contact can also mean if a person reported a crime or was the victim of a crime. Technically, if a person just addressed an officer, it would constitute "legal contact".
  13. drapetomaniac

    drapetomaniac Premium Member Premium Member

    Right. So, What is reasonable suspicion that a person has an expired visa? Or that they never filed an application for a visa?

    By what determination does a police officer consider someone suspicious for not complying with an application process?

    So why are people happy about it if it gave them no extra powers? It sounds like this was just a meaningless bill that passed.

    Which is why, many law enforcement agencies have always wanted their hands off of immigration enforcement. We saw the same thing post 9-11 when the feds wanted local agencies to help question Arabs and Muslims - those with large populations refused. That's because effective police forces build trust and build relationships with their communities.

    Once you answer the question of "what's reasonable suspicion" in this scenario, the answer is usually something which immediately gives the community a reason not to interact with law enforcement. Especially since, in Arizona, I'm 2 1/2 times more likely to have my car searched when pulled over based on "reasonable suspicion."
  14. drapetomaniac

    drapetomaniac Premium Member Premium Member

    "An American citizen who suffers from bipolar disorder, speaks no Spanish and has no Mexican ancestry, Lyttle had never been outside the country. He had, however, seen the inside of a jail, and that's where his troubles began. Lyttle, who had been living in a group home, was made to serve time in jail for inappropriately touching an employee. Unfortunately for Lyttle, the jail wrongly listed his place of birth as Mexico, rather than Rowan County, N.C., where he was actually born. Unbeknownst to his family, Lyttle was handed over to ICE under the pretext that he was an illegal alien.

    Shuffled around from one detention center to another, Lyttle was eventually deported to Mexico. Lacking any form of identification, it took him almost two years--all the while being forcibly shuffled from Mexico to Honduras to Nicaragua and finally to Guatemala--to make his way back to America. "We're an all-American family with two soldiers and a family member who happens to be handicapped," said Mark's brother, Brian, who serves in the U.S. Army. "It's like spitting on my uniform that you would do that to my brother."

    Lyttle is not alone. Hector Veloz, also a U.S. citizen, was locked in an Arizona prison for 13 months after immigration officials mistook him for an illegal immigrant. There are hundreds more like Lyttle and Veloz who are being wrongfully and unconstitutionally detained and, in some cases, deported, despite being legitimate U.S. citizens. Unfortunately, as the San Francisco Chronicle reports, "in immigration detention it falls to the detainees to prove their citizenship. But detainees don't have the constitutional protections, such as the right to legal counsel, that would help them prove their case." Furthermore, "immigration detainees are routinely shipped to remote jails where free legal aid is unavailable, their families are not notified of their whereabouts, and they are often denied access to telephones, mail and even medical care.""
    Alexander Hamilton, perhaps the most conservative of America's founding fathers, once said that the writ of habeas corpus was perhaps more important to freedom and liberty than any other right found in the Constitution. Believing that arbitrary imprisonment is "in all ages, the favorite and most formidable instrument of tyranny," the founders were all the more determined to ensure that the people had safeguards against government abuses such as those being carried out by ICE today.
  15. Dave in Waco

    Dave in Waco Premium Member

    I don't know what standards Arizona has set for what they consider suspicious, but as a reasonable average person, I would say that someone who can not speak ENglish or speaks English with a forgeign accent and acts in a nervous way as if trying to avoid contact with a law enforcement officer would warrant further investigation. At which point, a simple matter of asking the person for identification. Most US citizens carry some form of identification and legal visitors under the Arizona laws are supposed. As I said, reasonable suspicion is the same requirement applied to most suspected illegal activitiy.

    People are happy about it because while it gives them no extra power, it now makes it federal law, state law. It also requires them to enforce immigration.

    I don't have any additional info on Lyttle. Veloz on the other hand was a case of federal authorities not following the law. No system is ever perfect. If the system was, then Arizona wouldn't have needed to make immigration law a state offense as well as a federal one.
  16. Bro. Christopher Dawson

    Bro. Christopher Dawson Registered User

    respectfully to everyone who has posted on this topic:

    our ancestors paid no attention to what was right when they invaded and occupied this land, nor to the laws that existed here thousands of years before their arrival. some compassionate thinking might be in order here.

    however, to address the *present* issue of immigration...

    1) end all welfare programs OR
    2) hold congress accountable (and i dont mean form a tea party) OR
    3) open the borders completely OR
    4) force the mexican govt to police itself or improve conditions OR
    5) reform the naturalization process OR
    6) offer citizenship and issue social security numbers to all the immigrants here already
    7) then tax the ever loving snot out of them

    welcome them, put them to work, then use their taxes to improve our country. lets not be xenophobes...

    as far as violent immigrants, traffickers, drug-runners, ex-cons, etc....if they bring their illegal activities over here and threaten our citizens then we should put them all in a C-17, fly out over the bermuda triangle and dump them into the ocean without life vests.

    do we really want to tout the effectiveness of the police and law in mexico? really?? :52:

    lastly, i applaud the fact that each state has a right to govern itself to a degree. while i disagree with arizona, i dont disagree with the fact that they are tired of waiting for congress to do something about it. besides, its their state not mine.

    hopefully, this diversion will soon go away and lead into another diversion that the sheeple will gravitate towards and fight over.
  17. Blake Bowden

    Blake Bowden Administrator Staff Member


    Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    "Manuela Quintana said that they decided to leave when the Arizona governor signed the new immigration law. Their 10 children were born here and are U.S. citizens. Both she and her husband are undocumented, and currently unemployed."

    Wow, tell me that's not a drain on the system! A woman who has been here illegally for 15 years and hasn't made any effort to learn the language? A woman who gave birth to 10 children to make them citizens and the taxpayers are no doubt paying for lots of things for those 10 children? A woman who feels she has to move to another state because said state is going to actually enforce laws? I hear that Texas may pass similar legislation next January, but hope it includes severe fines and/or jail time for EMPLOYERS who hire illegals. BTW, notice how biased the article is? Just look at the title "Immigrant Families Leave Arizona" should read "Illegal Immigrants Leave Arizona" :thumbup1:
  18. drapetomaniac

    drapetomaniac Premium Member Premium Member

    Speaking Spanish doesn't drain the system. And it doesn't mean you don't speak English. And it certainly doesn't mean you "never made an effort to learn the language"

    Yes - she had babies specifically to make them citizens and for no other reason. That's why Catholics frequently have a lot of children and is how they view them after all. right?

    Like her *usually* employed parents? There's a lot of people out of jobs rights now - good to know how fast their dignity and worth to society dips as soon as they loose their jobs.

    I agree - a mandatory 1 year jail sentence - no fines. With all the severe rage about foreigners not filling out applications, I imagine the rage is much higher for those people who belong to the system of those laws.

    Unlike the unbiased xenophobic response of seeing someone speak Spanish and assuming:
    1) They are a drain on the system
    2) Not a taxpayer and have never been (I love the combination of "They're taking our jobs" and "they don't work" in the stereotype cookie jar btw)
    3) Don't speak English
    4) Never tried to learn English
    5) Had children *in order to* make the US citizens

    I know you said you didn't want to hear anything about "compassion" earlier in this thread. But I couldn't help thinking about this thread when a I gave a young man a coin this past Monday because he didn't have one. If only there was a group of men who judged people internally instead of externally and every once in a while tipped a hat to charity and even something as horrible as compassion.

    You can support law enforcement without histrionics and stereotypes.

    Immigrant advocates are generally advocating for human dignity as their primary goal. For instance, I think my grandparents shouldn't be detained because as citizens they don't expect to carry papers with them every where they go - and they happen to have extremely thick accents. They were worried about it before this law and would certainly have to pay attention now. I don't think my father (also a veteran and citizen) should be more suspicious and detained because he's heard speaking Spanish fluently and left the house without his driver's license (and social security card and birth certificate). I don't think any of the brothers I sit with in lodge who have Romanian, Middle Eastern, Spanish or southern or yankee accents should be treated differently and detained until they can prove they're in this country legally.

    And I certainly don't think a host of assumptions should be heaped on them because they have an additional job skill I don't (being fluent in another language).

    Myths about immigration

    Here's another group of illegals, not filling out the paperwork, not waiting their turn in line, avoiding taxes - I can smell the rage against these criminals
  19. Bill Lins

    Bill Lins Moderating Staff Staff Member

    That's a crock. The people mentioned in the article you posted should have been grandfathered, especially if, as mentioned, the code "violations" existed before they bought their houses. The conditions may have even been within the code at the time of construction. Further, the article speaks of people here legally, not those who snuck across the border in violation of the law- major difference.
  20. js4253

    js4253 Premium Member Premium Member

    When did it become acceptable to ignore the law?
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