It’s Ok For Muslim Violence Against Christians

[Bill Lins]

Re: It’s Ok For Muslim Violence Against Christians

"They are the solution to their own problem. If they would band together against the radicals of their faith, they could solve the problem. As long as they remain silent and sit on their hands, things will persist as they do now."

• I think the same can go for Christians as well. Fundamentalist hate groups have been running a mock for decades in North America, claiming to be Christian, with full tax exempt status.

Bro. Michael beat me to the punch- I was just about to mention Westboro. Fortunately, we have Patriot Guard members to keep them in check. The primary difference in your comparison is that the jihadis are much more likely to commit violence. The moderates must let them know, by force if necessary, that their behavior is unacceptable.

 

[Lyric'sMaster]

I dont know peopple do this discutions are accepted at all in one FM web, do u have any batter theme or...
All religions have good and bad side, that is normal and natural, religion makes not trubles, people are makin truble... Why in My Country Macedonia, Europe - or Albania, Europe or all over the europe Religions are tolerant... there is understanding bro.
Must be acceptible that all religions are for goodnes, but we like a humans we are makin trubles eachother... we not respect eachother... Guns no killing people... peopple kill peopple! U must not blame any religion, coz every one belive in smthin so if u blame any religion u dissrespect youre!

 

[Lyric'sMaster]

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[widows son]

It’s Ok For Muslim Violence Against Christians

"Bro. Michael beat me to the punch- I was just about to mention Westboro. Fortunately, we have Patriot Guard members to keep them in check. The primary difference in your comparison is that the jihadis are much more likely to commit violence. The moderates must let them know, by force if necessary, that their behavior is unacceptable."

• I agree, I haven't really seen much physical violence come from Christian fundamentalist groups, but they still are spreading hate, verbally, in the name of God or Christ. It's seems in all big three religions there's is at least one hate group. In Israel, there is a group of traditionalists who want to see the mosques demolished and a new temple built on the Mount. I think we all know the repercussions if that were to happen. I personally think that any radical fundamentalist group that spreads hate, commits violent acts: physical or verbal, protests things that are beyond the grasp of human control (sexual orientation) and call people every name in the book who don't follow them, should not be considered a religion/sect, and lose status as such.
That's me though.

Religious history is peppered with violence, so it should be no shock that it is still happening all over the world. The difference is, as a whole we know this but yet idly sit by and and do nothing. Car bombs will still blow up in the Mid East, fundamentalists in North America will still protest funerals, hate people who are different, and condemn anyone who tries to interpret their life outside of the "book"and certain Israelis will push for the destruction of the mosques. Not to mention all the other horrible things happening to people of other faiths (prevented from being a mason in Florida if you believe in certain pagan monotheistic religions)

How can we demand peace at home and abroad when we do nothing about it? I am guilty for being idle, but how can we stop this non sense without offending those who are in these groups? Not all of the followers of these groups do these bad things, which is where I'm having trouble for a solution.

 

[dfreybur]

Re: It’s Ok For Muslim Violence Against Christians

It's seems in all big three religions there's is at least one hate group.

It's not just Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and Hindu (using big to mean population of members and thus the big four) that are subject to parasitic infestation by fundies. All religions large and small are subject to it. A sad reflection on human nature and something for the moderates among members of all religions to stand against. Find some faith with a couple thousand members and they are likely to have a couple fundies leaching on their ways.

An important feature of Masonry is that we see good men and have no idea what religious membership they have just that they have one. We learn by experience that increased devotion does *not* come paired with a fundie outlook. We learn that increased devotion tends to come with better compassion for those who disagree.

 

[jvarnell]

The whole problem with all this is definitions of words and who controls them. The "people of the Book" are Christian only in the Quran and the ideals are the new testament word of peace and the knowledge of Christ teachings. Not the old testament which is history used to show how our walk with God changed. If you look at the Westboro Batpist church they use only the old testament for there message so they do not have the ideals of Christians but Christians are being sadled with them just because they call them self's Christians. If you can show me anyplace in the new testament where it says you must force someone to convert I will concede. And don't point to any of the Dogma of the deferent denominations of Christianity that was written by men. Fundamentalism is not bad if the ideals is good. But forcing someone to convert is found many places in Quran and Hadith. Think please think before you say anything about what I just said. As Freemasons we are a fraternity of men that should be able to with a token trust each other to have our back no mater what religion we are or where in the world we are.

When a question like this comes up on a Freemason message board it makes me wonder because of my knowledge what I have read in the Quran and Hadith. It is like the Military in the heat of things you do not want your mind wondering anything just doing what is right.

That is what makes Freemasonry so appealing is no mater what religion we are, we are brothers and got each others back.

 

[Michael Neumann]

:49oes anyone ever think "dang, why did I start that thread?" LOL

 

[widows son]

It’s Ok For Muslim Violence Against Christians

"The whole problem with all this is definitions of words and who controls them"

• Nobody controls words or definitions. Words and their definitions are the result intermingling of cultures and have been passed down through time. For example the word Humus is the definition for a chick pea in Arabic, but Humus in North America is the definition of a dip which uses chick peas.

"If you can show me anyplace in the new testament where it says you must force someone to convert I will concede."

• Did Christ not say the only way to the Father is through him?

" And don't point to any of the Dogma of the deferent denominations of Christianity that was written by men."

• The bible is a collection of stories over many generations in the past, written by men. I personally believe in the symbolic interpretation of the bible. JMO for this one.

"Fundamentalism is not bad if the ideals is good. "

• I haven't seen any good things come from fundamentalism. It fosters tunnel vision and prevents new ideas from emerging, which most of the time are new things that can help the advancement of humanity.

" As Freemasons we are a fraternity of men that should be able to with a token trust each other to have our back no mater what religion we are or where in the world we are. "

• This I 100% agree with you on.

" Does anyone ever think "dang, why did I start that thread?" LOL"

• Never. Although as masons we are prevented from the discussion of religious or political matters in a Tiled Lodge, this forum however is not a Tiled Lodge, and just because we are masons doesn't mean we don't have an opinion in matters religious or political. I really don't think anything on here that has been said is offensive. If these matters aren't discussed, how can there ever be progress?

 

[jvarnell]

Re: It’s Ok For Muslim Violence Against Christians

"The whole problem with all this is definitions of words and who controls them"

• Nobody controls words or definitions. Words and their definitions are the result intermingling of cultures and have been passed down through time. For example the word Humus is the definition for a chick pea in Arabic, but Humus in North America is the definition of a dip which uses chick peas.

Yes they are controlled by the loudest group saying them. Look at the word conservative It only means to use tradition while making decisions but young people think it mean that some one is going to lord over them.

"If you can show me anyplace in the new testament where it says you must force someone to convert I will concede."

• Did Christ not say the only way to the Father is through him?

That is how it was translated in the king James Bible. If you read it in the Greek and the part before and after you will get the feel Christ was saying that if you don't believe in him how can you believe in God. On force involved it is faith and belief.

"And don't point to any of the Dogma of the deferent denominations of Christianity that was written by men."

• The bible is a collection of stories over many generations in the past, written by men. I personally believe in the symbolic interpretation of the bible. JMO for this one.

It was written with guidance from God but dogma is man's own interpretation of those writings.

"Fundamentalism is not bad if the ideals is good. "

• I haven't seen any good things come from fundamentalism. It fosters tunnel vision and prevents new ideas from emerging, which most of the time are new things that can help the advancement of humanity.

fundamentalism is a word that is controlled by the media as bad but all it really means is someone adheres to the original word with out deviation. If it says love one another it means that. I see no where in the new testament that says kill anyone but it says spread the word. It doesn't prevent the advancement of anything it just says do these thing. How many don't do these things are in the new testament? even in the 10 commandments most of them are do and not don't do. Also the don't do's of the 10 commandments are the same things as in the obligation of a Mason just worded different.

" As Freemasons we are a fraternity of men that should be able to with a token trust each other to have our back no mater what religion we are or where in the world we are. "

• This I 100% agree with you on.

" Does anyone ever think "dang, why did I start that thread?" LOL"

• Never. Although as masons we are prevented from the discussion of religious or political matters in a Tiled Lodge, this forum however is not a Tiled Lodge, and just because we are masons doesn't mean we don't have an opinion in matters religious or political. I really don't think anything on here that has been said is offensive. If these matters aren't discussed, how can there ever be progress?

 

[athelstane839]

Violence is ungod like.


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[LittleHunter]

I'm tired of people fighting over whose religion is right, whose scripture is divine and whose interpretation is correct. All religions admonish us to be kind to one another. If God didn't like diversity there would not be so many religions. I respect Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed and White Buffalo Calf Woman and I believe they all originals intended for us to love one another. We must stop allowing religions to be manipulated politically as a motivation for war. It's time for us To grow up.


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[Lyric'sMaster]

I'm tired of people fighting over whose religion is right, whose scripture is divine and whose interpretation is correct. All religions admonish us to be kind to one another. If God didn't like diversity there would not be so many religions. I respect Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed and White Buffalo Calf Woman and I believe they all originals intended for us to love one another. We must stop allowing religions to be manipulated politically as a motivation for war. It's time for us To grow up...

I agree with u bro... Correctly...

 

[paul782]

Never discuss religion and politics ;-)


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[jvarnell]

We must stop allowing religions to be manipulated politically as a motivation for war. It's time for us To grow up.

Can you say Sharia? Some systems of law are based on religions and can not happen with out the other. That is why we here in the US have a laws against established state religions. Now this is not a law that says that religious displays can not be in public places just that the government can't say this is the only religion the government recognizes.

But I also think that religions doesn't manipulate politics but politicians use religion to get votes. Also we use each of our ideals to manipulate politics and our "internal self" is religious in some way or we would not believe in a SA. It is that belief that has made all religion in the way we understand things.

 

[jvarnell]

Never discuss religion and politics ;-)

I believe that is only in the lodge and men that want to understand each other should discuss everything. If I don't hear what someone basses their opinion on I can't understand why the believe and act the way they do. If I listen too and research what they say I can better understand what they think.

 

[BryanMaloney]

They are the solution to their own problem. If they would band together against the radicals of their faith, they could solve the problem. As long as they remain silent and sit on their hands, things will persist as they do now.

I have heard the exact same thing directed against me when some leftist decides to blame me for the excesses of Westboro Baptist or similar groups. Since I didn't personally go down and eliminate Christian extremists, I am to be held personally responsible for Christian extremism.

 

[Bill Lins]

I have heard the exact same thing directed against me when some leftist decides to blame me for the excesses of Westboro Baptist or similar groups. Since I didn't personally go down and eliminate Christian extremists, I am to be held personally responsible for Christian extremism.

We have banded together against groups like Westboro- you'll have a hard time finding leftists among the Patriot Guard, among others. Mebbe you should point that out to your liberal friends.

 

[Aeelorty]

We have banded together against groups like Westboro- you'll have a hard time finding leftists among the Patriot Guard, among others. Mebbe you should point that out to your liberal friends.

I have heard the exact same thing directed against me when some leftist decides to blame me for the excesses of Westboro Baptist or similar groups. Since I didn't personally go down and eliminate Christian extremists, I am to be held personally responsible for Christian extremism.

Excuse me for using a you two as an example. Within these two comments are the seeds that foster extremism, violence and conflict of all sorts. By using the left as an antagonistic group you are indulging in the biases that radicals all over the world exploit. The natural way we think negatively about people outside of our in-groups easily leads use to scapegoat them. This happens all over the world and history is replete with examples of the scapegoating and the degradation of out-groups. Now one of the effects of in group out group heuristics is that we tend to believe that other groups are very homogeneous, have negative attributes but accept that our group is heterogeneous and has positive attributes. Muslim culture is just as diverse as Christian Culture. I saw a very interesting graph that depicted the rate of violence across the world with lines plotted for each religion. Islam in the past has had a much lower rate of violence compared to other religions however in the very recent pass violence has declined dramatically to amazingly low levels. The violence in Islamic countries has had a much smaller and gradual decline. There are various reasons for this. My main point is that Islam is not inherently more violent than other religions but that it has not benefited as much from the improvements of modern life. There are better explanations of violence perpetrated by Muslims than their religion. I think that it is unproductive to blame Islam for violence rather than identifing the social and psychological issues at play.

 

[Bill Lins]

My main point is that Islam is not inherently more violent than other religions but that it has not benefited as much from the improvements of modern life. There are better explanations of violence perpetrated by Muslims than their religion. I think that it is unproductive to blame Islam for violence rather than identifying the social and psychological issues at play.

I never blamed the Islamic religion itself for the violence caused by its radical adherents. I did say that the more moderate members of that faith have to take action against the radicals to avoid being tarred by the same brush.

 

[lharoldo]

No, I think it's not ok. Here in Brazil we don't see this kind of things hapenning very often. I think it's because my country doesn't receive many arab immigrants as the US does. For obvious reasons, the US receive many immigrants, some good, some bad, but culturally different people, nevertheless, south americans included. The Muslim world, however worthy of respect, is different from us western christian civilizations. They think and they act differently because of their religious background, which formed their civilization. As a freemason, although we are all taught to be tolerant, there shall be rules and laws for any kind of religious violence, specially in a well developed country like yours. You must fight injustice and prejudice, but you have also to be prepared to understand that outside freemasonry many won't understand those differences and accept them. To begin building a better future with Muslims, first you have to realize what you have in common. There will be no progress without discovering this first cornerstone. For awhile, I think we'll see many sad episodes like this one, not only in America, but in the world.


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