Jolly Roger

Discussion in 'New Member Introductions' started by Isaih, Aug 24, 2014.

  1. Isaih

    Isaih Registered User

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    Hi,
    I'm interested in any books/references to the Jolly Roger symbol /flag and its connections with freemasonry.
    Particularly English/American masons.

    I believe it was used by the Jesuits once upon a time. Certainly the Templars, and Knights of St John .
    And that it is a reference to Jupiter and perhaps the ancient Phoenician pirates.

    That's where I am stuck , cannot quite tie it altogether.

    (I'm not a mason )
     
  2. Mike Martin

    Mike Martin Eternal Apprentice Premium Member

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    There is no connection between the pirate flag called the Jolly Roger (Skull and bones) and Freemasonry!

    The first thing that should be pointed out is that the Jolly Roger was not some "universal" flag employed by all pirates they had a variety of ensigns but as I'm not a Pirate I won't try to tell you about them I'm sure you can use google and wiki.

    However the symbol that some Pirates employed was the skull and crossbones and in the wider context of symbolism this is called the "mementomori" which is latin and translates as "reminder that you will die" which is why they have been used for milennia to warn people that a thing (such as the contents of a bottle or a ship full of pirates) may cause them to die quicker if they are not careful.

    In Masonic ceremonies the mementomori are used slightly differently and are described as "emblems of mortality" which are used to remind us that everyone sooner or later will die and that we as Masons should be extra careful to live life to the full and ensure that we don't die with regret in our hearts.

    Many symbols used in Masonic ceremonies (such as triangles, the Bible, all-seeing eye, mementomori, etc, etc.) have been borrowed from elsewhere and retain their original meanings, which are then weaved into the Masonic story. The ONLY symbols that are specifically Masonic are those that take their rise from the medieval Stone Masons' Trade.

    I hope this helps you with your researches.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2018
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  3. BryanMaloney

    BryanMaloney Premium Member

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    So, no rum?
     
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  4. Isaih

    Isaih Registered User

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    I've never heard of the mementomori, so thanks Mike , that gives me something to go on.
    Brings to mind the promise to Adam and Eve by god and the counter promise by the serpent.

    Is there a book the profane can read on this topic?
    Do you know if the double headed phoenix is a symbol of piracy?

    My interest is in privateering. The use of them by the pope, and then English monarchs and subsequently their employment by the early soverign states of America.
     
  5. Mike Martin

    Mike Martin Eternal Apprentice Premium Member

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    Sorry, I maybe should have been clearer.

    There is no link between Freemasonry and Piracy at all, so I am afraid that unless this Forum has a member who is also a Pirate or an expert on Pirates we're not going to be able to help you.

    Maybe you should search for a forum based on "Piracy" or maybe even "Naval History", this is a Forum for people to discuss and learn about Freemasonry with Freemasons.
     
  6. Isaih

    Isaih Registered User

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    Last edited: Aug 25, 2014
  7. BryanMaloney

    BryanMaloney Premium Member

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    The momento mori is very widely used throughout European history. Supposedly, the phrase was used to someone who was given a Triumph in the Roman Empire. Going through the whole parade, cheered by the crowd, the hero had someone following him the whole time, saying "Remember, you will die." Once Western Rome receded and was replaced by Europe, it became a common feature of European art. If you look at European painting and sculpture from the Middle Ages through the 1800s, you will easily find skeletons, skulls, etc., somehow there, kind of odd-looking. Each is a memento mori. The Masons didn't invent it. Masons adopted it as a commonly-understood symbol of wisdom: "Remember, you will die."

    As time went on and the West decided to cut its own throat and bleed its cultural heritage out onto the ground, fewer and fewer people understood the symbol. As Hollywood fantasy replaced historical knowledge, it became a "pirate symbol" or something entirely divorced from traditional meaning and invested with new, lunatic crackpot, significance. Welcome to the 21st century.
     
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  8. Mike Martin

    Mike Martin Eternal Apprentice Premium Member

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    I'm sorry but what the heck has that got to do with anything that actually happened in British History??? Have you even heard of Henry VIII one of the most famous of English Kings who ended the rule of Rome within his Kingdom.

    MORE IMPORTANTLY though you have a complete non-grasp on what Freemasonry actually is. You need to start again as you have based your paper on fallacious material.
     
  9. dfreybur

    dfreybur Premium Member

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    Wow. That's insane ranting. I pray for your mental healing. Using the ignore feature on you for a while until/unless I see good evidence to reverse that.
     
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  10. Isaih

    Isaih Registered User

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    Mike the queen appoints the Knights of St John today to adminster the law
    These same knights were disbanded by Henry v111. Outlawed.
    And yet there they are now with enormous power. Power over the Bar Associations, amongst other things.



    And you're right of course I have no way to understand freemasonry, but I wonder how many masons really understand it.
    Or more especially who they are working for.

    The way its set up, its not impossible you could be an American working for the (papist) British to overthrow the sovereignty of your own country your whole life, and never be aware of it. Would you not agree that is possible?

    While you are dabbling in Gnosticism, the real fruits of your allegiance may well be treason. Unbeknownst to you.

    1688 Glorious Revolution- protestant victory
    1717 first Grand Lodge is opened in England, the very same religion as practiced by the knights of st John who Henry v11i outlawed

    Anyhow its just a theory based on a chance discovery I made that Imperial Prize Acts were used to form government in Canberra 2 years after we declared independence from Britain with the Australia Act.

    And when I looked into the actual men who were instrumental in these changes, I keep seeing Irish Catholics in Australia and freemasons.
    And then in following the necessary changes to Prize Law , took me to America where its just freemasons responsible.

    Anecdotally, masons I know hated the catholics a generation ago. As I do.
    Police here used to have a catholic shift and a freemason shift, because they didn't like each other.
    Now they think the pope's a great guy.

    So something stinks to high heaven.

    My theory I'm sure isn't a perfect explanation of what happened and why, which is why I am trying to research. Imperial Prize Law used to form government is a smoking gun though, to my mind. The rest is thin and I need help from men in-the-know to flesh it out with further evidence.

    My understanding of British History is through Maccauley, which is pretty standard.
    And of course reading the laws /trials and the words of the men of the day.
    And using the 2 pillars of Solomon to get to the truth.

    Americans tend to think their revolution made them free.
    I wonder if their understanding of British history is sound.
    You were free with a Bill of Rights prior to the revolution.

    And was it not freemasons behind the Boston Tea Party?

    Was Napolean not a freemason? Perhaps the most successful one. And certainly a man with enormous power. Yet did he not put his own demise down to the Jesuits?
    If he could be used, knowing what he knew, with the power he had. Couldn't you?
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2014
  11. Mike Martin

    Mike Martin Eternal Apprentice Premium Member

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    I'm only going to correct your errors about Freemasonry then I've done enough as you are just making up stories.

    In 1717 4 Lodges in London started the first Grand Lodge in the world. However Freemasonry is not a religion and it was not practised by anyone other tha Free and Accepted Masons.

    No, Emperor Napoleon Bonaparte was NOT a Freemason but his brothers were.
     
  12. Isaih

    Isaih Registered User

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    napolean.png
    Ok thanks Mike.
    I had assumed he was by the hand in the jacket in portraits.
    Maybe Josephine gave him the crabs and he was having a scratch.

    edit:
    You threw my whole understanding of the demise of the pope out of whack Mike, so I had to look for some actual sources that he was one.
    Unless you're suggesting he was a mason then was kicked out of the order.

    Chris Hodapp, 33rd degree Scottish Rite from Indiana says he has proof that he was
    http://freemasonsfordummies.blogspot.com.au/2011/11/manuscript-naming-napoleon-bonaparte.html

    The pope banished the Jesuits 1773(to Corsica), he was poisoned and a generation later, 1798, one of the most significant events of modern history occurs.
    The pope is dethroned by Napolean. (perhaps fulfilling the prophecy of Daniel).

    Then the freemason Napolean sees his own demise.

    And the victor rising from the ashes is the Jesuits who from then on control the office of the pope.

    If I was a freemason looking from today's perspective at those events, I'd realise that the Jesuits control freemasonry. And as most freemasons that count are protestants, the Jesuit's sworn enemy, I'd form the opinion I was being duped and used , after a critical examination of the Napolean outcome.

    However if Napolean is not a freemason I would not draw those conclusions.

    Therefore there could well be a motivation to distance freemasonry from Napolean.
    Destruction of records and so on, so freemasons don't become savvy to who their puppetmasters are.
    Or perhaps he wasn't a freemason but rose to power independantly through extraordinary good fortune, and Josephine gave him the crabs.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2014
  13. Brother JC

    Brother JC Vigilant Staff Member Site Benefactor

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    Hodapp merely reported the existence of a document. There is no proof of its validity. In fact, it gets pretty well shot down in the comments. Your arguments, in general, are standard pablum, regurgitated by the same people who cry "Illuminati" every time they see an eyeball.
    Anglo Catholics venerate the same Saints as Roman Catholics. That doesn't make them Papists.
    Also, what the hell does a hand in a jacket have to do with the Craft? Nothing.
     
  14. Morris

    Morris Premium Member

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    I think he's teaching for his wallet.
     
  15. Mike Martin

    Mike Martin Eternal Apprentice Premium Member

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    OK just one more.

    The document refers to "Bro. Bonaparte" not "Bro. N. Bonaparte" and as we know for historical fact that Napoleon's brother Joseph was a Freemason it would be ridiculous to somehow make it Napoleon who is being referred to, unless of course you're trying to sell a book.

    Some people, I include you in this based on what you have supplied so far, seem able to make huge leaps of faulty logic without doing enough actual research into their subject matter.

    Fin.
     
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  16. Warrior1256

    Warrior1256 Site Benefactor

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    Weird stuff indeed!!!!
     
  17. Isaih

    Isaih Registered User

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    trysquare I think 'standard pablum' is an unfair accusation of my so called arguments.( I had to look up the word pablum) Neither are they regurgitated.
    My country is being conquered through the backdoor Through the law.
    I am trying to figure out how and why.
    Unlike you guys, I don't have anyone holding my hand and guiding me. I have to figure it out myself .
    And as the paths of evidence are usually swept over, one must make intuitive leaps of logic to get anywhere.

    And I don't cry illuminati.. Do you really suppose the men who run this world would allow the latest hiphop star to join them? I don't..
    If I ran the world and let some galoot join me because he was superfly and don't take no shit from his bitches, I wouldn't be running it for too long.

    I am a protestant, the enemy is the same named in our law, named by our forefathers, and shown through bible prophecy.
    I think most freemasons must be as horrified as I am at the takeover of our law by the Roman Catholic church. The destruction of the protestant aspect in the British Constitution in recent years is extremely dangerous to men who like the freedom to believe what they wish.. If history is any guide.
    And if Napolean is any guide, the Jesuits will eat their daughters when they've served their purpose.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2014
  18. BryanMaloney

    BryanMaloney Premium Member

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    This is such typical lunatic conspiracy theory.
     
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  19. Isaih

    Isaih Registered User

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    This lunatic conspiracy theory is written in our foundational law.
    The true Bill of Rights 1688
     
  20. BryanMaloney

    BryanMaloney Premium Member

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    No, that document does not say that the Pope is trying to take over the world. Sorry. Do you ever get outdoors?
     
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