meeting with deacons of the church

Discussion in 'General Freemasonry Discussion' started by kenlew25, Nov 16, 2010.

  1. kenlew25

    kenlew25 Registered User

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    I have a meeting tonite with some deacons of the church we are opening a new lodge and made a proposal to use some of the church space not the congregation of course. Well they have some concerns of the fraternaty being a secret society. Any suggestions Brothers.


    Bro lewis
     
  2. Ben Rodriguez

    Ben Rodriguez Registered User

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    Inform them as much as you can, but keep in mind that it will be useless to debate or attempt to get them to understand the work of masonry if they oppose it. But who knows? They might just understand and cooperate. Best of luck!
     
  3. kenlew25

    kenlew25 Registered User

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    So mote it be
     
  4. QPZIL

    QPZIL Premium Member

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    Be as open and as forthcoming as you can, is my only advice. If these guys are expecting hooded figures and secret rituals, overwhelm them with openness and kindness!
     
  5. tomasball

    tomasball Premium Member

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    You don't say which church this is. You also don't say what you are going to use this space for, although the implication is that it's for Lodge meetings. I'm a Presbyterian elder, and I would probably not attempt such an arrangement. A church is entitled to know everything that is going on in their building, and by law, we are not allowed to tell them everything that goes on, even if it's perfectly benign.

    If you don't own a lodge building, I think you are better off with some commercial establishment you can rent according to your own needs.
     
  6. kenlew25

    kenlew25 Registered User

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    Thankyou all!!
     
  7. BillyWaltmon

    BillyWaltmon Registered User

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    Please let us know how the meeting went.
     
  8. Dave in Waco

    Dave in Waco Premium Member

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    Just be as open and honest with them as you can, short of revealing the secrets. I would even try to set up an open meeting with an open invitation to any and all church member that wish to attend. Remind them that this country was founded on the ideals of Freedom and Tolerance, which are Founding Fathers learned about in their Masonic Lodges during a time of intolerance and the rule of monarchs.

    But whatever you do, don't try to dodge a question. If they ask you about the secrets, just tell them that they are ancient forms of recogniations that you took an oath on your honor not to reveal. And as for them being a secret, they've been published by various people who lied to gain them for the last 300+ years.

    If they ask about Masonry being a religion, tell them the truth in that Masonry has never tried to be a religion, but encourages all of it's members to be steadfast in their chosen faith.

    And my favorite, if someone brings up Masons trying to take over the world tell them this. During the Revolutionary War, the Continential Congress was set up like the Masonic Grand Lodge system, because that's what the Founding Fathers modelled us after. Our Constitution, especially the Bill of Rights, came from Anderson's Constitution, which was the constitution that governed Masonic Lodges at the time. America's most famous Mason was George Washington. Following the Revolution, many statesmen wanted to make George Washington King of America, which he turned done. He was offered the chance to be President for Life, which he also turned down. The section of the Constitution outlining the job of the President was written with a lot of input by George Washington. So George Washington, America's most famous Mason, turned down the chance to be king and turned down the chance to be President for life. After serving his second term, despite still overwelming popularity, he stepped down from the office of President setting a tradition of a 2 term limit. The 22nd Amendment that limits a person to 2 Presidental terms was added to the Constitution in 1947 by President Harry Truman, who was also a Mason. So to say that Masons are trying to take over the world is incorrect. History shows that Masons have been continuelly offered the world, and we gave it to the people.
     
  9. kenlew25

    kenlew25 Registered User

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    very enlightful my brother!!!
     
  10. tomasball

    tomasball Premium Member

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    Question: "Can one of us attend one of your business meetings to see for ourselves what it's like?"
    Answer: "No, that would be a violation of our rules. You could attend an open meeting, like an installation of officers or a fifty year pin presentation, but not a regular business meeting."
    Question: "Well, then, can we read the minutes of your meetings?"
    Answer: "No, our rules say only Masons can read our minutes."
    Question: "Your Coil's Encyclopedia says that you are an 'oath-bound fraternity.' Can you tell us something about these oaths?"
    Answer: "No, I can't even confirm that there is an oath."
    Question: "There are men who have been Masons, who have quit because they felt your ceremonies violated their religious beliefs, right?"
    Answer: "Yes, but they're wrong. I find our ceremonies completely uplifting, and reinforce my religious beliefs."
    Question: "For example...?"
    Answer: "I can't tell you anything specific, but I assure you the focus of the ceremony is on God and morality."
    Question: "So you want us to let you use our facilities for ceremonies some people find offensive, but you can't give us any details?"
    Answer: "You'll just have to take my word on it."
    Question: "Is there any hazing during your initiations? What about that fellow killed in New York?"
    Answer: "That business in New York had nothing to do with what we do in lodges in Texas."
    Question: "Okay, but do you haze in any other way?"
    Answer: "There is nothing I would regard as hazing?"
    Question: "(Sigh...) Is there something other people would regard as hazing? Do you use blindfolds?"
    Answer: "I can't tell you that."
    Question: "I see...do you use ropes?"
    Answer: "I can't tell you that."
    Question: "You understand that our liability carrier is going to be asking us these questions? You understand members of our congregation are going to be asking us these questions?"
    Answer: "Well sir, you should tell them that George Washington was a Mason. That ought to satisfy them."
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2010
  11. JohnnyFlotsam

    JohnnyFlotsam Premium Member

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    Actually, most of the "I can't tell you that" answers are incorrect. Unless the GLoTX has rules that extend to ritual and other esoteric work, only the various modes of recognition are "secret".
    Not that that's likely to make much difference if the church's deacons object. They will find reasons to object no matter how open you are willing to be. And if they don't, someone in the church almost certainly will.
     
  12. tomasball

    tomasball Premium Member

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    Are you saying the obligation isn't secret? That the preparation of the candidate isn't secret? I'm pretty sure the Committee on Work would not agree with you. My dictionary says that esoteric means secret. My understanding is that if I can be expelled for writing something, that makes it secret. If there's a tiler at the door keeping non-masons from observing the proceedings, that makes it secret.
     
  13. LDSpears

    LDSpears Premium Member

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    What is the answer to that last post by tomasball? I have heard it both ways and would appreciate knowing for sure the answer. Most everything we do in lodge, ritual wise, can be found on the internet, but I always thought I was to keep it all secret. Unless it is not coded in the monitor. That is how I have always drawn the line. Any official answer on that is greatly appreciated.
     
  14. cemab4y

    cemab4y Premium Member

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    I cannot speak for Texas. The entire Masonic ritual and all of the esoteric work, is splattered all over the internet. Masonry has no more secrets that "Wikileaks". The best kept secret in Masonry, is that there are no secrets. In 1824, the book published by William Morgan, contained all of the ritual work. The book served to standardize ritual across the USA. I always tell anyone who is interested in Masonic ritual work, to get a copy of "Duncan's ritual" or "Look to the East!", both available from Amazon.

    If you are uncomfortable in answering the questions put to you, you should suggest to the committee, that they get a copy of these books, and make up their own decision. Then they will know the answers, and you have not violated any part of your oath.
     
  15. Zack

    Zack Registered User

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    There are secrets in Masonry.
     
  16. JohnnyFlotsam

    JohnnyFlotsam Premium Member

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    Who has suggested that there are not?
     
  17. Zack

    Zack Registered User

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    Read post #14
     
  18. JohnnyFlotsam

    JohnnyFlotsam Premium Member

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    It may be splitting hairs, but observing the fact that Masonic "secrets" are available to anyone inclined to look is hardly the same as saying that they are not "secrets". Yes, yes. We might argue that the "real" secrets are still safe, but that's a completely different discussion and not what Brother Martin was referring to.
     
  19. tomasball

    tomasball Premium Member

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    This is kind of wandering from my original point, which is that if you're asking a church to let you meet on their property, you have to be prepared to tell them you can't discuss certain details of your activities. The minutes are restricted by Grand Lodge Law. Regardless of what is or isn't on the internet, you can't answer some of their questions. You can't reveal the names of people going through your ceremonies. What goes on in a tiled lodge is proprietary. You can gloss over it when discussing it with profane friends, or talking about a Discover Channel documentary, but when entering into a real contract or agreement with a church, there are real issues.
     
  20. tomasball

    tomasball Premium Member

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    Once again, the original poster didn't say explicitly that the Lodge wants to hold Lodge meetings in the room we're talking about, but if so, GLoT law would require that a DDGM inspect the room and certify that other people couldn't evesdrop from adjacent rooms. When the lodge is meeting, there's going to be a MAN WITH A SWORD at the door keeping out the inquisitive.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2010

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