Perfected or already perfect?

Discussion in 'Becoming a Freemason' started by Bird_n_hand, Nov 28, 2017.

  1. Bird_n_hand

    Bird_n_hand Registered User

    45
    6
    8
    A little background before I start. I'm a Buddhist and a Christian. It's what I'm comfortable with so far lol I've study with no formal education a fair amount of psychology and philosophy and sought after a many religions seeking truth wherever i may find it; because I'm odd and find it interesting. I also smoke alot of medicinal marijuana. I follow the law of the land. Where I reside it's legal so it leads to alot of deep thinking.
    I have a question and it's been bugging me as if late. If freemasonry is about perfecting oneself than that means before your raised you must be imperfect. Then and only then you can work to become perfect. So why would a criminal record bar a man from seeking guidance to become a better man? Is it not true that all man are born flawed in one sense or another or am I simply mistaken? From my understanding of myself. I first have to recognize my own errors before I can turn it into a triumph. Wouldn't that be a truism for all my brothers. The only other way is to fool oneself into believing that no work need be dune in which case your already perfect and that would make the path of seeking perfection invalidated and there by invalidating freemasonry? Of course unless I'm mistaken which happens alot I might add. Just ask my significant other cause I'm always wrong XD
     
  2. JamestheJust

    JamestheJust Registered User

    1,672
    507
    113
    The term "perfecting" is used in the 18th degree along with many alchemical symbols. Perfecting therefore has a technical meaning that is applied symbolically to the candidate.

    >why would a criminal record bar a man from seeking guidance to become a better man?

    A man with a criminal record may or may not be banned from applying for initiation, depending upon the rules of the relevant Grand Lodge. If not banned then the individual lodge will assess the worthiness of the candidate with due consideration of the age and seriousness of the offenses.
     
    Bird_n_hand and Ripcord22A like this.
  3. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

    2,068
    2,050
    133
    Only one?!?!!?
    Yes. But how are the words "perfect" and "imperfect" defined?
    Because freemasonry claims to make "GOOD" men better; not "BAD" men better. It is not a reparatory or restorative system. It is a philosophically maturing based society, even though collectively it does not practice/support what it preaches.
    Yes. But our systems is not designed to make men flawless. Our systems point to "maturation", and this does occur if you follow its yellow brick road and do the Work.
    One could only hope.
    And immature souls do sometimes take this view and approach. However, the intent is to offer a maturing process, not require it. And if you desire to mature, there is a path to take that accomplishes this end.
    LOL! Join the team!
    You might gain some insights by reading this: https://buildinghiram.blogspot.com/2015/12/perfect-in-sanity.html
     
    HoldenMonty and Bird_n_hand like this.
  4. Warrior1256

    Warrior1256 Site Benefactor

    7,255
    3,288
    183
    The way that I heard it put once....."Our goal is to make good men better, not bad men good".
     
    HoldenMonty and Bird_n_hand like this.
  5. Elexir

    Elexir Registered User

    690
    520
    93
    The term "make Good men better" is something thats not used at all över here and Im glad for it.

    The only thing freemasonry (or maybe masonry ;) ) or any other fraternety can do is give you the tools to become a diffrent man (and hopefully for the better).

    As in regards to why criminals bar a person from joining its really for practical reasons to protect the lodge and the GL.
     
  6. dfreybur

    dfreybur Premium Member

    3,935
    2,387
    133
    It's a lesson you should learn in different ways in each of those religions. Within each of us is a spark of the divine. It is through our thoughts and acts that we build a realization of that fact. Here the word realization is used in both ways. It's an intellectual understanding that gets called realization. it's an emotional break through that makes real. Sure enough, one of the ways we make good men better is by helping each other make it real.

    This is one of many conundrums found in our practice. On the one hand many jurisdictions allow felons to petition as long as it is revealed on the petition and discussed with the investigating committee. On the other hand some members will drop a cube and some jurisdictions will reject any felon. Yet get convicted of a felony when already a member and nearly every jurisdiction will expel you. Anyone who has attended Annual Communication at Grand Lodge knows that every year there are reformed felons applying for reinstatement. Depending on the crime the vote might by generous in favor or nearly unanimous against. Felons who harmed people in non-financial ways, especially women or children, rarely see generous votes.

    I suggest you view it as a small boat versus big boat issue. I'm sure you could phase it from a Christian context as well once you read my suggestions.

    Small boat - As individual Masons it is our task to do works which move us towards making it real that we feel our divine spark. A member who is convicted of a felony will have turned away from that quest so it's time to cut him loose until or unless he reforms. Maybe one day we'll be at GL voting on his restoration. Either way it's up to him.

    Big boat - As a lodge we need our assemblies to filled with good works. As an organization our reputation suffers if we retain felons so expelling felons allows us to recruit the next generation.
     
    Bird_n_hand likes this.
  7. Bird_n_hand

    Bird_n_hand Registered User

    45
    6
    8
    Wow you guys are great and thank you for responding so quickly. It let's me know all of you really care about your beliefs no matter how esoteric they may seem to be at times.
    I want to start by saying to mr. Dfreybur that I love how you call it the divine spark. Truly it has to be. Without that spark we would be nothing more then dirt. God is a great engineer and he wouldn't have wasted his time on something he didn't feel would have some great potential. I suppose the term spark is very interesting to me. A spark can only occur when two object meet. One positive and one negative. When they pass by eachother energy is discharged from one into the other at a rate of 10000 volts per inch, I digress

    I just want to make it clear I'm not a mason nor have I ever petitioned for that honor. I was a very lost soul in my youth but through my many years living I have come across a great many Great men who have in one form or another gave me some light, they all have left a huge impression on me and gave me something to model after. To that I'm grateful for having met them.

    Perfect: taken from Latin would be to have been made whole and complete. Being right
    Imperfect: also taken from Latin would be flawed and not complete. Being crooked

    Here's something I pose to you.
    If freemasonry makes good men better and not bad men better. If it's the perview of the criminal justice system and religion to help make whole again.
    What's the barometer that measures a man's worthiness. If I show you two people who have hurt someone. Say one man drink and drive and hit someone but got away with it after hitting someone.
    And another man did the same exact thing except he striken with remorse turned himself over to the police. Now one man although he may have a criminal record in my eyes is still a good man for making it right.
    The man who didn't turn himself in would be free to petition later in life. But the man who did the right thing is now barred.
    When I was younger I met a master mason and he just got out of jail for a dui. He was still active in his community. How I don't know.
    I may be a bad person in the eyes of some and I've hurt a great many people in my life. This guilt I'm forced to live with daily. But like the second man I faced my demons. I wouldve gotten away Scott free. But I made the honest decision and turned myself in. Im not sorry i did that either it was the best decision I've ever made in my life. If man won't forgive I can live with that because my God will accept me non the less as I have been made whole again
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2017
  8. Warrior1256

    Warrior1256 Site Benefactor

    7,255
    3,288
    183
    True.
     
  9. Warrior1256

    Warrior1256 Site Benefactor

    7,255
    3,288
    183
    To each his own. I like it myself.
     
  10. JamestheJust

    JamestheJust Registered User

    1,672
    507
    113
    >What's the barometer that measures a man's worthiness.

    Mostly people measure the worthiness of others by resonance of mental, emotional and physical states. If they feel comfortable then they are likely to accept the other person.

    Freemasonry also talks about using the working tools in a moral sense. If this skill is available to a brother then that can be used to test the uprightness of an applicant.
     
    Bird_n_hand likes this.
  11. pointwithinacircle2

    pointwithinacircle2 Rapscallion Premium Member

    803
    841
    113
    What does your ritual say about the perfect Ashler? Mine says that it is "a stone that has been made ready by the workmen to be adjusted by the tools of the Fellowcraft". So if a perfect Ashler still needs adjustment, not by a MM but by a Fellowcraft no less, then what is it about the stone makes it perfect?
     
  12. JamestheJust

    JamestheJust Registered User

    1,672
    507
    113
    In one RC ritual there is a reference to the cubic stone being changed into the mystic rose but the means of transformation is not described.

    A significant entry to the Mysteries is concealed by that somewhat garbled conjunction of cubic "stone" and rose.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2017
  13. Bird_n_hand

    Bird_n_hand Registered User

    45
    6
    8
    I suppose if God creates the lovely beauty of the rose, down to the heavenly fragrance, and He also created the stone. Him being perfect, would He not create something perfect as well. Just my 2 pennies.
     
  14. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

    2,068
    2,050
    133
    That's because any stone that may contain flaws that prevents it from being used will cause it to be rejected at any point while the goal of making the stone suitable for the Builder's use regardless of flaws therein contained is pursued continuously.
     
    Warrior1256 likes this.
  15. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

    2,068
    2,050
    133
    God's creations are flawless but immature when undeveloped. We are God's creation, but we require maturing.
     
    Warrior1256 likes this.
  16. Warrior1256

    Warrior1256 Site Benefactor

    7,255
    3,288
    183
    Very good.
     
    coachn likes this.
  17. dfreybur

    dfreybur Premium Member

    3,935
    2,387
    133
    Wisdom to contrive. Strength to support. Beauty to adorn. Perfection comes in layers.

    The ashlar shipped to the construction site is ready to be a block in a stable wall. That might be enough. Or it might be on the face of a wall and need to be polished. Or it might be assigned to a shape not a block and need free form carving to complete. Perfect does not imply complete. There's always more even when you get something just right.
     
    Bird_n_hand and Warrior1256 like this.
  18. Warrior1256

    Warrior1256 Site Benefactor

    7,255
    3,288
    183
    I like this too.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2017
  19. Ripcord22A

    Ripcord22A Site Benefactor

    3,330
    2,021
    183
    No what it means by use them in a moral sense is “remember to break ur time up so you don’t waste it all working” “if you are rough around the edges work to smooth those out” ect ect you can’t actually use a Gavel to know your rough edges off....




    Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry mobile app
     
    dfreybur and Warrior1256 like this.
  20. Ripcord22A

    Ripcord22A Site Benefactor

    3,330
    2,021
    183
    Well a MMs tool is the trowel and a FCs are the sq lvl plumb. The EA smooths out the stone the FC stacks and builds then the MM comes in and inspects and applies mortar
     
    Warrior1256 likes this.

Share My Freemasonry