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The big pink elephant in the room...

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Bro. Vincent

Registered User
... Can we have an intelligent and brotherly discussion about race and freemasonry? Or are we still too small on both sides to have that "honest" discussion?
I am a provocative mason who is willing to talk about the tough subjects in order to understand my Caucasian brothers... And try to have them understand me as a PHA...Even the ones I vehemently disagree with...at the end of the day you are still my brothers so I wish to get your mind set on somethings...

Who is game?

By the way, I understand there are some things I know we are going to agree to disagree on... And I'm still willing to go there...


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JJones

Moderator
Unless I'm mistaken, there have been several threads on the subject here already.

I've no problem with discussing it but I think you'll find that it's not such a powder keg of a subject here...at least not in my experience. :beer:
 

Michael Neumann

Premium Member
... Can we have an intelligent and brotherly discussion about race and freemasonry? Or are we still too small on both sides to have that "honest" discussion?
I am a provocative mason who is willing to talk about the tough subjects in order to understand my Caucasian brothers... And try to have them understand me as a PHA...Even the ones I vehemently disagree with...at the end of the day you are still my brothers so I wish to get your mind set on somethings...

Who is game?


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I will take you up on this provided it is handled on the level, no insults are taken.

You know, I wonder why in 2013 we are still talking about race. Race is utter nonsense and shows how low the human mind can degrade to. I sit in the office with black Americans, white Americans, and everything in-between Americans. When race comes up only the black Americans refer to 'us' and 'we' as the blacks. The Americans who descend fro Europe, Puerto Rico, and Asia refer to 'us' and 'we' as all Americans, they are non-color descriptive.

My question is this - I was raised thinking that we are one, we are all equal and we are all Americans. Knowing as we do now that EVERY race has endured slavery for hundreds of years why is it that some black Americans have to categorize themselves as separate from the rest?

From no-holds-barred discussions with my relatively diverse group of friends I have found that racism is far more predominant among black Americans. You can read this article http://townhall.com/columnists/walterewilliams/2013/05/08/honest-examination-of-race-n1588213 and it supports what I am saying. Yesterday during discussion two of my friends acknowledged they voted for Obama simply based upon his race....? You are going to close your eyes to everything the man says and voted based upon race? ... in 2013? ... really?

If it were up to me labor unions and title 7 would be thrown out the window and hiring, elections, and value would be dependent upon the individuals capabilities and not color, ethnicity, or sex. PHA and 'mainstream' should be separate ONLY because of the rich history each has. We should be able to walk between their lodges freely.
 
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stuntman98

Registered User
Lets break this down.....Free and accepted.....are there slaves.....no there for ask men can be masons.....are all men accepted......you must cast a ballot, black and we stones and vote, there for every man that was made a Mason under a just and duly constituted lodge of such is recognized by the grand lodge of England and every regular lodge world wide. S.M.I.B

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Howard1977

Registered User
I wholeheartedly agree!


Life is tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid. - Bro. John Wayne

This too is spot on. Race is a silly issue. We as Masons should always be above racism.

Life is tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid. - Bro. John Wayne


Brother, Companion, & Sir Knight Howard E. Hubbard. New Hope #480 Eldon, Iowa A.F. & A.M and Springville Lodge #139 A.F. & A.M. Springville , Iowa, Clinton Chapter #9 R.A.M, Ottumwa Council #31.R. & S. M., Malta Commandery #31 K.T, State of Iowa
 
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widows son

Premium Member
Id have to agree with bro. Neumann. I was invited to a couple regularity Facebook pages between PHA and clandestine masons. The majority of the "clandies" seem to have this "white men brainwashed those who are darker skinned" attitude. Just seems nonsensical.
 

stuntman98

Registered User
Clandys.........
PM Pride of Walton #110
SW Sons of Light #77
Spain Military Consistory Orient of Europe
Grand Technician WFOT
 

Bro. Vincent

Registered User
until those southern states practice "true " brotherhood, race will always be an issue. As an African American I will never turn the other cheek to systemic racism or sweep it under the rug.

I have many white friends and they say why can't you just move on from this? My answer is always the same... If you do not confront and constantly challenge it you run the risk of these things happening again.

Remember the 13th amendment is just that it's an amendment not a law. Those mainstream lodges in the south are still holding on to their old racist views and some instances I believe they should be viewed as clandestine for not living up to the full masonic laws in their lodges.

In 2013 these are still the types of reasons why we continue to be a divided country. Unless you are a person of color it is very difficult to understand why my Caucasian brothers get agitated when I find it offensive when they tell me to get over it and stop blaming the white man. Though I do not walk through claiming the white man is the source of my woes. Historically blacks have been largely written out of world history including freemasonry.

And I talking long before Prince Hall came on the scene.

Look, I am not an "angry black man" in the least, although I have every right to be...I work in corporate America and I can tell you racism is well and very much alive. Because it is I will continue to address an fight it.


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ARizo1011

Premium Member
Look there's racist people in the world... That's that. I am latin and have many black friends. There's racism in the world. Why fight something you can't win? There will always be someone out there that has a problem just with the skin tone of one. You can't change everyone's mind. A "white man" has kids.. All they see us that dad "hates" blacks.. So they will also grow to be the same. It's what you see in your family as a kid .. It's sticks with you. If you can't change it why fight. Your fighting a war you already lost..

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.


I get what your saying but it's not worth all the struggle. You can't change every "white mans" thoughts. So just make sure you as a person don't have a racist heart and show your family as well. The more people open there eyes The less racism.. That's all we can do as human beings... Love Brother..






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JJones

Moderator
Those mainstream lodges in the south are still holding on to their old racist views and some instances I believe they should be viewed as clandestine for not living up to the full masonic laws in their lodges.

For the sake of discussion, what do you think the mainstream lodges should do?
 

widows son

Premium Member
Bro. Vincent, you make very valid points. I'm not really aware of much African history with regards to freemasonry, only Prince Hall. Not saying there isn't, but could you provide some light on this?

I mentioned in my previous post about the thought process of some of these clandestine masons. I really can't understand how one can go through life with such distorted version of reality, with claims that science and other institutions are agreeing with these people's statements on the one hand, and in the same topic say that everyone is brainwashed because of these very institutions that they say agree with them. Non sensical.

What I think needs to happen is get rid of these clandestine bodies. They are not helping any cause, Masonic and non Masonic. I believe that once that happens more Afro-Americans can further help the PHA deal with the issues that it is facing. It would seem between the clandies and the few mainstream lodges that are stuck in the past are giving the PHA a run for its money. It seems that its being pulled from both directions. If at least one of these can be controlled, it might be easier to negotiate a resolution.
 

Bro. Vincent

Registered User
Now that is an interesting question. I'm not sure to be honest. I think one step would be for all other mainstream GLs that recognize PHA and vice verse to put pressure and or collectively not recognize those GLs in that still hold these practices close to the vest.

This mason does not personally recognize those lodges. And for them to hold on to practices of the forefathers is no reason in hell to continue to do so today.

We are in the 21st century and we are still having to deal with this...I love PHA lodges because culturally it makes sense for AAs to continue to connect in a positive way with our fathers, brothers and sons in a positive and constructive way, while at the same time enjoying the fellowship with mainstream brothers.

All encompassing unity and recognition should be the goal and those that choose to turn their back on " any regular mason" should be shunned and casted as clandestine... My two cents.


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Bro. Vincent

Registered User
Part of the problem is if the true history of man is told these invisible walls would disappear... Masonry is a part of that history.

You must understand that I am student of "world" history not just European history. When you have a understanding of things beyond European and American history your outlook drastically changes because you start to get a full grasp of the contributions to civilization people of all colors have made throughout time on this planet.

You would also get a breathe taking view of the contributions Africans to masonry before the 1700s. And this is the great divide between blacks and whites in this world. Black folk want to recognized for its achievement.

Afrocentricity Says that we will teach ourselves our history instead of what European scholars have told us about our selves.

Most of you have no cultural identity to Africa so I understand why you wouldn't study it. But in my opinion you are short changing yourselves from understanding the full scope of Freemasonry by stopping your studies in Europe.

I thank you brothers for having an insightful and intelligent conversation about this...


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Brennan

Registered User
Hellos brother. I am a recently made Master Mason (raised on May 6th) from Tennessee. Since I'm new I do not know that much about the history between mainstream lodges and PHA lodges other than one is predominately white and the other is predominately black. I also know that TN is one of the few remaining Grand Lodges that does not recognize PHA Masons.

And I do believe that it is only a matter of time until Tennessee and the other GLs recognize each other. It's simple progress and progress cannot be stopped. It pains me to see brothers bogged down by their prejudices when we are supposed to be striving towards light.

I would like to know if any of you brothers believe there could be a merger of the lodges in the future, a synthesis of the two. And if there are any PHA Masons in TN I would love to meet you.


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Bro. Vincent

Registered User
Hello bro Brennan,

Only time will tell if the southern lodges will change, I for one do not lose too much sleep over it. But what i do know is Chattel Slavery in America was the worse holocaust in the history of man and southern jurisdictions refuse to let it go.

I understand a lot of those men will take those ridiculous ideologies to their grave. But All good masons have something of value to add to the craft and that should be the common goal of making good men better.

I applaud my mainstream brothers of this forum who choose not to partake in that sort of mentality but choose to meet their PHA brothers on the Level. But we have to honestly look at history objectively because to me, it is the only way to move forward. To me, it's like trying to find out if you are predisposed to cancer as an orphan. Because you do not know your family history it would be nearly impossible to answer that question.

This is why these subjects must be dealt with openly and honestly IMO. In order to know your future we have to look in the mirror and deal with our past, then we can move forward. The fact that you asked the question is a step in the right direction.


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stuntman98

Registered User
I was stationed in GA not long ago, there was a lodge right outside the main gate, there was a few cars in the parking lot so i decided to knock on the door, see if anybody answers and ask when meetings take place, somebody answered i extended my head, he except it, so i introduced my self and asked "when do you brothers meet" he told me "you guyses lodge is on 6th and 6th" i said "yeah i know but i live here on post and this one is really close" add he replied " you guyses lodge is on 6th and 6th, i suggest you go there".

I was a bit upset because i came from a place in which race was no issue, now I find myself in a state where brotherly love ain't that brotherly.

I have seen what can be accomplished if we put race aside, in Seattle the MWGLWa and the MWPHGLWa take the brotherly love to a whole NEW level joint raising more visitation than i have ever seen. Books and correspondence were given to the pha lodge by the ms lodge.

We all need to come together to make a difference, the color of skin may be difference, but we take the same solemn obligation.

PM Pride of Walton #110
SW Sons of Light #77
Spain Military Consistory Orient of Europe
Grand Technician WFOT
PDDGIT Afghanistan WFOT
 

Brennan

Registered User
I do feel that the mainstream lodges are missing out on good brothers by doing things like that. I don't know what te relationship is like in TN between the two lodges, but I do know we have black brothers in Memphis. I guess we'll just have to take it in strides.


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Bro. Vincent

Registered User
In time things will change or it dies. Some times change must be forced... You can't sit idle and hope that people develop and grow. I believe that is why so many lodges suffer from strong membership.

Because officers sometimes hold on to old philosophies. I am not referring to ritual work or conferring degrees. I'm talking about bringing their social prejudices in the lodge.

Why else would a brother in good standing be turned away from a lodge? Simply unbelievable!


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Bro. Vincent

Registered User
I was stationed in GA not long ago, there was a lodge right outside the main gate, there was a few cars in the parking lot so i decided to knock on the door, see if anybody answers and ask when meetings take place, somebody answered i extended my head, he except it, so i introduced my self and asked "when do you brothers meet" he told me "you guyses lodge is on 6th and 6th" i said "yeah i know but i live here on post and this one is really close" add he replied " you guyses lodge is on 6th and 6th, i suggest you go there".

I was a bit upset because i came from a place in which race was no issue, now I find myself in a state where brotherly love ain't that brotherly.

I have seen what can be accomplished if we put race aside, in Seattle the MWGLWa and the MWPHGLWa take the brotherly love to a whole NEW level joint raising more visitation than i have ever seen. Books and correspondence were given to the pha lodge by the ms lodge.

We all need to come together to make a difference, the color of skin may be difference, but we take the same solemn obligation.

PM Pride of Walton #110
SW Sons of Light #77
Spain Military Consistory Orient of Europe
Grand Technician WFOT
PDDGIT Afghanistan WFOT

Interesting story. I will be in Montana this summer. I hear the PHA of Oregon oversees Montana's jurisdiction and the mainstream Montana GL recognizes the PHA and vice verse.

I plan to visit Montana's GL in Helena when I visit this summer. Should be interesting to see what happens.


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Michael Hatley

Premium Member
As others have said, there are a bunch of threads about this on the site here. It has been discussed a lot. Not saying a new one isn't worthwhile, but you might be surprised to find that a pretty massive majority of folks who frequent this site are pretty strongly for strong relations, ending divides and so on and so forth. So you're sort of preaching to the choir, in a way.

Most of us younger fellas (lets say under 40) grew up in a world where color of skin is meaningless. Lots of us who are Masons, whether PHA or "mainstream" (hate that term but it is what it is), served in the military - and anyone who has done that has learned that race is just not a barrier to brotherhood in any way. The whole issue is so yesterday.

But right, you look at group photos of PHA lodges - almost entirely African American folks. Look at "mainstream" lodges photos, almost entirely Anglo American folks. Just is what it is.

How to change it? What to do?

First thing to recognize is that we have five main living generations in the world right now:

1. The GI Generation - 90+ or so right now, served in WWII or were of the right age to

2. The "Silent Generation" (the term was coined by a writer, not me)....about half the size of the generation before. Lots of em served in Korea or were the right age. Around 70-85 or so right now.

3. The Boomers. About twice the size of the previous generation. 55-70 or so. Vietnam vets and so forth.

4. Gen X. 35-50ish. Half the size of the previous generation. Atari 2600, Reagan as a kiddo, etc. No major wars, latch key kids and whatnot. No Internet as a kid, but were early adopters.

5. Gen Y. 20-35 or so. Twice the size of Gen X. Grew up with the 'net. Lots of em who have made their way into the Fraternity are vets of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Now, the first one on the list are dying off. Just is what it is. They are rare birds.

The second one will over the next couple of decades. Right now though they are, in lodges all over the world, still very, very influential. They were the elder adults during the time of the civil rights movement - lots of times, the conservatives. They are passing the torch over the next 15 years to younger men.

The third one never really joined the Fraternity in anywhere near the numbers that the preceding generations did. A lot of them have joined in the last decade or so. Quite a number of them now, but and will be more as they are retiring - but a load of em are just as new to the craft as Gen X and Y are. They lived through the Woodstock years as kids. Lots of them are conservative, sure - because thats what happens when you're 401k is starting to matter a lot, and Masonry attracts some conservative sorts of folks. But they are a lot more interested in diversity as a whole than the two preceding generations because they admired Martin Luther King Jr., the Kennedys and what have you, no matter what their skin color is.

Now we come to Gen X. I imagine thats the majority of members here. Lots of us are in progressive lines of our lodges. We grew up knowing only we could prevent forest fires and in diverse classrooms. We're joining the fraternity at about the same rate the boomers are, lots of times because we are just not all that thrilled as a whole about being deacons in our church, but we want to be involved in the community and so on. We're generally tech saavy, more so than the preceding generations. And we don't dig racism, at all.

Gen Y are the younger folks who we see knocking on our door, including here. College students and whatnot. Folks returning from the wars overseas. Racism is inexplicable to them, entirely so. They haven't began joining the fraternity en masse yet. But, like the boomers, there is a whole lot of em. And they are more "joiners" than the boomers were - and so it is likely they will come to us in numbers a whole lot sooner than the boomers did.

Now I ramble about all of this to sort of point out that gravity is going to work in our favor. We who are Boomers and Gen X have a responsibility to pave the way for Gen Y. In a lot of situations, to pick our battles. We aren't going to change the minds of the GI Generation or the Silent Generation, not really. Not in most cases, anyway. What we have to do is lay the groundwork for change. And in a lot of cases, recognize that Gen X is going to be in leadership positions a lot sooner than the Boomers were, on the whole - simply because we are joining in numbers similar to them despite their much larger size.

In Texas, we need visitation between PHA and the Grand Lodge of Texas. Its the next step. As more of us become Past Masters, in both jurisdictions, we'll have the vote and the platform to speak out on that issue.

And then we need to get off our asses and visit each others lodges. Build real friendships and lines of communication.

And take it from there.

The future is bright.
 
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