Thomas Jefferson + Others

[JTM]

A lot of times you get people that frown on energized or even hostile groups. TJ, Sam Adams, John Adams, all thought this to be a necessity. So when I hear "Aggies don't do that" or something along those lines, I'm quick to remind them of a few of our past school presidents that went to Austin to kick ass and came back with bloody knuckles, not a moral victory.

Now, am I saying that force is the answer to everything? No, but when you're right, and someone else is wrong, one of the most effective ways to get your point across is to carry that big stick without fear of having to use it, should the need arise. Also, I take pride in our history of violence and bloodshed to protect the freedoms that we *should* hold dearly.

It applies to the nation as well:

Thomas Jefforson:

To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

I know of no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion.

A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned – this is the sum of good government.

Every citizen should be a soldier. This was the case with the Greeks and Romans, and must be that of every free state.

Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.

For a people who are free, and who mean to remain so, a well-organized and armed militia is their best security.

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

John Jay (first Chief Justice of the Supreme Court):

No power on earth has a right to take our property from us without our consent.

and now for some of the more striking, forceful quotes:

Patrick Henry:

Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death!

Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined.

James Madison:

We are right to take alarm at the first experiment upon our liberties.

John Adams:

The jaws of power are always open to devour, and her arm is always stretched out, if possible, to destroy the freedom of thinking, speaking, and writing

There is danger from all men. The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty.

some of my favorite are from Sam Adams:

It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people’s minds

The liberties of our country, the freedom of our civil constitution, are worth defending against all hazards: And it is our duty to defend them against all attacks.

Among the natural rights of the colonists are these: First a right to life, secondly to liberty, and thirdly to property; together with the right to defend them in the best manner they can

and then the Big Billy Badass of the group, Nathan Hale:

Nathan Hale was so extreme that, when seeing he was to be martyred by the British, wished he could die over and over again. That’s some hard core right wing lunacy.

Hale was a spy for General George Washington, another right wing extremist who we’ll get to in a moment. When Hale was caught and sentenced to hang, he reportedly told the British soldiers, “I only regret,†he said, “that I have but one life to lose for my country.â€

While Hale didn’t actually say much, it’s the extremist nature of his most remembered comment that earns him a spot on the list. Wishing you could die repeatedly for libertarian values? This kind of thinking empowers others to keep fighting for ideals such as freedom, individualism and liberty. You can see how the left finds it dangerous.

Wow. Meek does not begin to describe these guys. A peaceable solution to a threat of their liberty was not an option.

Does this kind of post scare federal authorities? Damn right it does, it probably even scares a few people that read it. Good.

We'll go back to TJ for the last one:

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

 

[drapetomaniac]

John Adams also signed the first Sedition Act.

My problem is the rhetoric of tyranny and liberty and freedom seems to apply to practically anything someone doesn't like these days - usually tax related, while many civil and human rights issues, or issues of checks and balances are ignored or encouraged. I'm talking about the public discussion on this.

I think the words have been cheapened by the inflation of their use. In 50 years, people will think Hitler was a heavy taxer, or environmentalist the way people throw around his name.

These quotes are largely like quoting the Old Testament, and only part of them. Eminent Domain, for instance, was in our fifth amendment, yet a Chief Justice appears to say there is no such thing.

To take the very first quote means groups should start arming themselves. Liberals should have armed revolt when the GOP is in office and Conservatives should have armed revolt when a Democrat is in office.
We would also have to assume that Jefferson always agreed with the policies supported by the taxes he paid - else he surely would have taken up arms and tried to abolish the government again.

 

[JTM]

The issue most colonists had was not with the amount that was taxed, but the lack of representation. Technically, every MP in British govt represented every citizen, not just his region, so the british didn't see it that way. The colonists did because their voice wasn't heard.

TJ didn't revolt against the new policies and taxes because he assuredly had a say in their creation.

As for the context issue, if I had posted full speeches, nobody would have read them, so they got left out.

The point of this was that if these guys were to exist today, they'd be seen as terrorists.

 

[drapetomaniac]

The issue most colonists had was not with the amount that was taxed, but the lack of representation. Technically, every MP in British govt represented every citizen, not just his region, so the british didn't see it that way. The colonists did because their voice wasn't heard.

And our democracy is still functional. So while the rest of society isn't obeying one part, everything we are experiencing is still a result of our democratic actions.

TJ didn't revolt against the new policies and taxes because he assuredly had a say in their creation.

But by his definition, *anything* he disagreed with was tyranny. While I agree he likely agreed with a lot. That's a LOT to agree with.

As for the context issue, if I had posted full speeches, nobody would have read them, so they got left out.

The point of this was that if these guys were to exist today, they'd be seen as terrorists.

I disagree. The full speech would be available.

However, if only the quotes (as opposed to the speech and context) are what is acted upon - there would be armed revolt every other election if not all the time.

TJ and others didn't act on their quotes, they acted on the full context of democracy.

 

[JTM]

well sure, but they still carried a big stick and i doubt they would've been hesitant had the need arose.

you don't immediately grab your gun at the first sign of not getting your way, but to not consider it if your liberties are infringed upon is foolish.

 

[drapetomaniac]

Sure, but my liberties are infringed upon every day.

Monday, I counted the camera surveilling the streets as I drove 7 miles to work.
4 intersections with 4 cameras each. (16 cameras)
One camera pointed at a deceleration lane.
3 cameras pointing the opposite direction, but monitoring I-35.

I can't see boobs or hear swears on TV. I've paid for a crap load of policies I dont' support and salaries of people who either should have been in jail, or later actually did go to jail.

I don't have to worry about picking up my gun, because so many people are constantly thinking about it. I've seen threads about revolution in multiple masonic forums - none about organizing democratic campaign of education and voting.

 

[JTM]

actually that's something i'm working on now. getting a group of people together for lectures on civics, etc.

 

[Hippie19950]

I gotta get a new chair and table in here... Drape has argued the legs off of them, and I've got a couple of fence posts that are leaning...

 

[JTM]

okay, i laughed out loud. sorry drape