Time Limits

Discussion in 'The Voting Booth' started by Blake Bowden, Jul 13, 2009.

?

Should there be time limits for turning in your proficiency work?

  1. Yes

    20 vote(s)
    43.5%
  2. No

    26 vote(s)
    56.5%
  1. Blake Bowden

    Blake Bowden Administrator Staff Member

    5,679
    984
    113
    I vote NO. If a Brother wants to be an EA for 20 years, so be it. I think by removing the time limit it allows a Brother to enjoy and learn each degree more thoroughly. I also feel that an individual will have a better understanding of each degree without the rush to become a Master Mason. What are your thoughts?
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2009
  2. rhitland

    rhitland Founding Member Premium Member

    1,417
    9
    58
    Maybe a Lodge could see fit to put time frames on proficiency but easliy bend them when needed. This is something GL should leave to the Lodge.
     
  3. scottmh59

    scottmh59 Registered User

    693
    5
    0
    i agree rhit, the lodge should have the say in how long it takes someone to learn their work.when the person gets rushed they will not be enjoying the work being learned,and will not look forward the the next degrees.
     
  4. TCShelton

    TCShelton Founding Member Premium Member

    1,037
    8
    38
    Gotta go no as well. This should be up to each individual.
     
    Warrior1256 likes this.
  5. 4thgenPM

    4thgenPM Guest

    0
    0
    0
    Brethren, I agree with you that this is something that is completely individualized but there must be some form of structure to advancing through the degrees. That is why there is a 1 year time limit on automatic advancement upon completion of the proficiency exam for EAs and FCs and a 90 day period for new MMs. If an EA or FC needs more time than the 1 year, they can continue to study and attend degree work (and even stated meetings now) but they cannot advance until they complete the Petition for Advancement. As such, it is possible for someone to remain an EA for 20 years or more (see Bro. Lyndon B. Johnson) but at some point the question must be asked about why the Brother would choose not to advance...is there something he expected to get out of Masonry that he isn't getting? Were his expectations unrealistic and not caught during the investigative process?

    Once the Brother is ready to advance, all he needs to do is complete the 1 page "Petition for Advancement" and submit it to the Lodge for a vote. As long as there are no objections, it is balloted upon by a show of hands at the same meeting. If there is an objection, an investigative committee is assigned and the ballot takes place at the next stated meeting.

    In regards to the new MM, if he doesn't return the catechism and the ALL program within 90 days, he actually stands automatically suspended and should not attend Lodge or participate in any activity other than completing his requirements.

    The issue at the heart of this is: what do we expect of our Brethren and at least some minimal level of commitment to our customs and traditions, and secondly, what do our new Brethren expect of us and are we doing a good enough job in our investigative process to ensure that they are coming in with a solid understanding and reasonable expectations of the Masonic experience?
     
  6. nick1368

    nick1368 Registered User

    484
    1
    0
    I have to agree with Bro. Moore, there needs to be some type of structure for advancement.
     
  7. RedTemplar

    RedTemplar Johnny Joe Combs Premium Member

    1,072
    36
    68
    One thing I have never completely understood is why would a man pay dues for 20 years as an EA?
     
  8. TCShelton

    TCShelton Founding Member Premium Member

    1,037
    8
    38
    EAs don't pay dues. They pay the one-time EA degree fee.
     
  9. RedTemplar

    RedTemplar Johnny Joe Combs Premium Member

    1,072
    36
    68
    EAs pay dues in Kentucky
     
  10. TCShelton

    TCShelton Founding Member Premium Member

    1,037
    8
    38
    Wow, that would suck then. How much are their dues compared to MM dues? Same?
     
  11. Wingnut

    Wingnut Premium Member

    1,095
    17
    38
    Why would anyone want to stay an EA? they cant vote, cant be on committees and as you said dont pay dues (in Texas). They can stay an EA forever today, but after 1 year they have to re-petition to advance and shouldnt be allowed into the lodge after the year is expired.

    Ive never seen an active EA that took even close to a year to finish and move up to FC. Keyword there is ACTIVE. We have enough members already.
     
  12. owls84

    owls84 Moderator Premium Member

    1,653
    9
    38
    I vote no. I voted this way because I feel that to truly do the degree there is more than just the memory work. There is a side to Masonry that is being left out and to me it is the side that Masonry is founded on. I am having to find that with a select few number of guys but because no one at my Lodge wants to look at that side it is not being shown to new members. I believe we need to come up with something better than the ALL program. Lets raise the bar a little bit. Too often we get in a rush because a man takes a while to learn his work. I think if we remember there is more to it then the memory work then we can really start to help these people who have obviously came to us in search of something. What are we giving them now that they can't get at a church or other support group?

    When people tell me traditions by learning the work I always respond with, "Give me a year, I can teach a parrot the memory work. But to dig and learn what you are saying that takes time." Usually less than a year but if a man wants to be an EA longer why not let him and make it easy for him to be an EA. If this happens I could see why a man would be forced to pay annual dues as an EA though.
     
  13. RedTemplar

    RedTemplar Johnny Joe Combs Premium Member

    1,072
    36
    68
    I can't state the official rationale behind EAs being charged the same dues as MMs. My guess is that it encourages EAs and FCs to get their proficiencies turned in more quickly and it means more money for the GL. But, as for me, I will take quality over quantity every time.
     
  14. rhitland

    rhitland Founding Member Premium Member

    1,417
    9
    58

    An EA can be buried as a Mason no matter how long ago it was so maybe that is all they wanted to be buried like Grandpa. Right Worshipful said an EA can be allowed back in Lodge after the year for instruction purposes and further said that listening to open and close of a lodge is instruction therefore they can attend lodge forever as an EA why I am not sure. This is directly from RW Tommie Guest at a Sec School. Donny Broughton also said the same thing but I was not there to witness so it is hear say on his part. It would be up to the lodge to let them in but it is legal if they want to.
     
  15. Wingnut

    Wingnut Premium Member

    1,095
    17
    38
    I guess they are the boss, but seems to take away some incentive to advance.
     
  16. Hippie19950

    Hippie19950 Premium Member

    283
    1
    38
    I feel a year is a decent time to learn the work we are expected to learn and turn in for E.A. and FC. Now, if I have learned everything there is when turning in the work, then I no longer need to come around right? My thoughts are that we should teach the candidates as much as they can learn, as quickly as they can learn, but let's start with the memory work. I learned the memory work, questions and answers, and turned it in. As I have continue to attend Lodge, and meet with Brothers there, and else where, I am learning more about what I should be. I guess I had a little head start, or inside help, in that I have pretty much always been around Masons, and watched and listened, and asked questions. I also spent many years investigating crimes, so my skills of observance may have been a little keener than the average person. At any rate, I feel we should get them in, teach them the memory work, and continue to teach them the values we each expect, all the while making it interesting. I am still learning, and hope to continue to do so. I am still excited about Masonry, and enjoy any chance to tell someone else about it when they ask. It is usually because of a sticker on my Jeep, my belt buckle, or the strange emblems in the paint work on my motorcycle. None have yet asked for a Petition, but like cards, the winning one will come up at some time..
     
  17. owls84

    owls84 Moderator Premium Member

    1,653
    9
    38
    See I am back and forth on this for the reason of people learning diffrently. I know some the esoterical and other like to sit back and hang out. Maybe they get involved in the fundraiser/community involvement side. I just don't know though because we all join to get something personal out of it. I really believe that if the investigations go well and they discuss a plan for each candidate (roll they can play in a Lodge) then base it off of that. I think a year is good as well but what I think is that there is more than the memory work that needs to be taught. Things like the symbolism and how it is different to everyone or the duties of officers. I think once we do this we give people a purpose and a place to get that little something extra. Then we become more than the Lions Club or the Kiwanians. You will see attendance rise and then we have more than 10% participation. I'm just saying lets not rush it. If a candidate gets into the studies and wants to learn more then lets let him without additional paperwork or anything.

    I guess let me ask this, Why is there a timeline? So what if it takes 2 years for an EA to "learn" what he wants. I know they do this in Scotland. I have actually been told that Master Mason in Scotland is a very big accomplishment and they feel ours is a bit watered down.
     
  18. Wingnut

    Wingnut Premium Member

    1,095
    17
    38
    Im being somewhat guarded in my answer because of where this is posted...

    Lets be honest, the rule was changed to allow stated meetings to be opened in the EA and FC in an attempt to try to keep more of our EA/FC advancing and involved. Prior to that we told them "welcome! you got a great degree! We want you to be part of us... Now, get out and dont come back until your ready to get your next degree. OH we are having a dinner next month before the stated meeting, come on up we need someone to wash dishes."

    I was all for the change at the time, now I often question it... EAs dont pay dues, cant vote, depending on the floor school or esoteric work being taught cant attend some classes. And since we open in the EA/FC we cant have a lot of the 'higher' education during lodge unless we boot them out.

    As is often said and often observed, Masonry is not a race but a journey. A Mason never stops learning, especially if you get into the Scottish Rite (had to insert a plug for the University of Masonry). Even after you complete the profecency work there is still a life time of learning that needs to be done...
     
  19. HKTidwell

    HKTidwell Premium Member

    493
    10
    0
    Art. 360....(near the end)
    "..... The privilege of a Masonic funeral, when requested, shall be extended to Entered Apprentices and Fellowcrafts who die within twelve months of the conferral of the Entered Apprentice or Fellowcraft Degree upon them, or have petitioned and been favorably balloted upon for advancement subject to the other applicable provisions of this Article."

    I've not seen anybody vote against the advancement of degrees(Art. 434a) when it is required for time having lapsed. I agree with having a time requirement because I think it probably helps some dedicate effort in a timely fashion to complete the work.
     
  20. jwhoff

    jwhoff Premium Member

    2,591
    142
    83
    I lean yes. But only because some of them find other, and less masonic, things to do with their time. Like General Forrester of KKK fame. He was but an EA. Not sure whether he learned much work thereafter or not. Too many folks still throw it in your face that some are considered masons, whether they traveled far enough along the way to become a MM.

    Many men make one circumambulation but aren't worthy of the craft in the long run. For this reason we should guard the craft closely.
     

Share My Freemasonry