Transgender Masons

Discussion in 'General Freemasonry Discussion' started by jdmadsen, Jul 5, 2015.

  1. jdmadsen

    jdmadsen Guest

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  2. Andymac40330

    Andymac40330 Premium Member

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    Per the regulations it seems you'd be correct but I'd like to hear some other opinions as I'm a new MM
     
  3. NZ-Freemason

    NZ-Freemason Registered User

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    I think if a current Freemason transitioned to become a female, then they would need to resign their membership. That is straight up and down in my opinion.

    If however, a person, born a female but became a male later in life petitioned to join the craft, what grounds would there be to blackball them? A part from anything, how would the brethren know this information? Its not like its a standard question when petitioning a lodge?

    I wouldn't blackball an applicant purely because they were trans-gendered.
     
  4. dfreybur

    dfreybur Premium Member

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    A case of a male to female transition happened in California one of the years I was a warden. The lady was convinced to demit. So far so good. She had her birth certificate legally changed to say female, not sure how that worked but it happened.

    That's when the entertainment ensued. She petitioned for the Order of the Amaranth. She got someone to sign her petition as having known her since birth. When the members figured out what had happened they filed charges, did an Amaranth trail, ejected her. Then they voted at state annual communication to add the word "born" to their petition.

    The Amaranth delegates requested that the same change by made at the blue lodge state petition form. One of the officers in the line with me was a Grand something in the Amaranth so he wrote the proposal. I signed.

    When it came to debate on the floor the committee on jurisprudence recommended that any such event be considered a local issue and they did not want the state level to touch the topic. I did not go to the floor to argue in favor. Transsexuals are rare. How many know even one anywhere?

    I'm straight but not narrow. In theory I'm not bothered by such a person. How i think I might vote is between me and myself. How I would end up voting would be between me and the ballot box. I would not be surprised at a rejection.

    How about someone we don't know? I can't even begin to estimate how I would react.
     
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  5. JJones

    JJones Moderator Staff Member

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    I creep around r/Freemasonry but I've stopped posting much for the time being...I remember seeing a thread like the OP mentioned before.

    I've submitted and revised this several times as it's a delicate subject. I'll just leave it at this: admission into the fraternity and the continued membership therein require the belief in a supreme deity. Supreme deities don't make mistakes.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2015
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  6. Companion Joe

    Companion Joe Premium Member

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    For some reason, I followed the link and read some of the comments. The following has nothing to do with Masonry:

    I can't believe some people are advocating allowing children to make such decisions. If a grown man wants to do such a thing, whatever; knock yourself out, Caitlyn. This isn't like when you were a teenager and just had to have a Members Only jacket and parachute pants. It's real, and the results are with you for the one life you get here on Earth. There isn't a reset button. As a high school teacher, I know first hand that what 16-17 year olds know to be real on Monday has completely changed by Friday. Kids get caught up in and are influenced by whatever freakshow reality TV program is the rage of the moment. It makes me cringe to think where our society is headed.
     
  7. Brother_Steve

    Brother_Steve Premium Member

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    There are certain questions you are asked at the door and if they are not in the affirmative then you cannot be a mason.

    Having said that, you cannot make someone "forget" masonry if they go from being a man to a woman after being raised.

    They will always be a mason having experienced the degrees and moral lessons therein.

    Traveling may be a pain though if your jurisdiction allows you to remain a member of your lodge.
     
  8. jdmadsen

    jdmadsen Guest

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    No that person won't forget what he experienced, but neither will an expelled mason. That's not the point. The point is that they no consider themselves women therefore u no longer meet one of the basic prerequisites to be a mason!
     
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  9. Rifleman1776

    Rifleman1776 Registered User

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    I believe a person cannot be 'transistioned' male to female or visa versa. The body may be chemically and surgically altered but one is still what they were born as. We don't have to answer for our black balls. All that is necessary is if we believe the petitioner will not make a good Mason. After the fact? Thorny issue. I have to wonder why a male to female trans would want to stay except to make a fuss.
     
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  10. Glen Cook

    Glen Cook G A Cook Site Benefactor

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    But that begs the question, does it not? If the person answers yes, as they have undergone gender transformation, where do you go from there? I am not aware of a jurisdiction which asks at the door if you were born a man.

    FWIW, my advice has been that if the birth certificate does not indicate male, they do not qualify. If they now identify as female, they do not qualify.
     
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  11. crono782

    crono782 Premium Member

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    Purely from a philosophical standpoint, we also require that a man be free born. Given that a lot if not most trans folks self describe as being the opposite gender, but "trapped" in the wrong gender/body, would that not be a bit like being shackled and perhaps not free in that context at birth? Food for thought...
     
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  12. hanzosbm

    hanzosbm Premium Member

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    As far as I'm concerned, just because you change out the fenders and give it a new paint job doesn't mean that a Ford becomes a Chevy. I don't really care who or what you 'identify' as, I care what you are. And no amount of cutting things off or makeup is going to change that. That being said, I do feel that a man who decides he wants to be a woman has forfeit his claim to being a man. So, in short, a transgender individual, in my opinion, would not be permitted to join.

    I think there are other issues raised here as well. The two main ones I can think of are choosing to go against the design of one's creator and judgment of mental stability of a person who would undergo such a change. Admittedly those two objections are matters of opinion, but I think they ought to at least be considered.
     
  13. jdmadsen

    jdmadsen Guest

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    I am so glad that we are mainly on the same page here. I couldn't believe that "brothers" on the redditt page were argueing for this nonsense
     
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  14. hanzosbm

    hanzosbm Premium Member

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    Everyone has a right to an opinion, and I'm fine with them arguing their point, regardless of what I think of it. That being said, in an atmosphere where all it takes is a single dissenting, anonymous vote to prevent it, I doubt we'll be seeing many of them in our lodges.
     
  15. hanzosbm

    hanzosbm Premium Member

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    There is another issue that just came to me that I'm not sure we've addressed.

    Each of us took an oath as Master Masons. Regardless of what any GL says about what they think is acceptable or not, our oath was to a higher power than them and cannot be repudiated or laid aside. While each man must make the decision about whether or not he feels that the individual petitioning fits the requirements in their own interpretation, to me, even if the GL were to say to let them in, that would not be good enough. I would refuse to be present for the making of such a Mason and I would refuse to sit in Lodge with such a Mason, and no edict coming from any power lower than that which I took my oath to (i.e., none) can change that. I have a feeling that if the GL were to press this issue and require acceptance, you'd see either non-compliance or a mass exodus from the Craft.
     
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  16. JJones

    JJones Moderator Staff Member

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    If you want to see real arguing, join up with some Masonic Facebook groups if you haven't already. It's an embarrassment.
     
  17. NZ-Freemason

    NZ-Freemason Registered User

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    I agree. Its no secret that here in New Zealand we fancy ourselves quite "progressive" (take from that what you will), but if a unilateral decision was made by the Grand Lodge of New Zealand to accept all transgendered people the craft would probably lose 90% of her members.

    If I had to guess, I would say that Freemasonry in New Zealand would adopt a "Don't ask, don't tell" approach. Issues like this would be put firmly in the too hard basket.
     
  18. Keith D. McKeever Jr.

    Keith D. McKeever Jr. Premium Member

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    The investigation committee is going to have to do some extensive background search and now I feel that there is really going to be a discrimination lawsuit against the craft. How would that work? I'm pretty sure they'll be another clandestine grand lodge being establish to accommodate those not being a man, free born, of lawful age, and well recommended.
     
  19. hanzosbm

    hanzosbm Premium Member

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    I'm not too worried about a lawsuit for discrimination. If there was any grounds to base it on, women and atheists would've put an end to us long ago.

    As for the forming of a new clandestine lodge...that's an interesting point. I wonder how some of the comasonry groups will approach this. Having no prohibition about women or men belonging to their group, I don't know how they would feel about the issue.
     
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  20. Companion Joe

    Companion Joe Premium Member

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    I may botch this post trying to get it inserted the right way, but I'll try. This is something another person posted on Twitter.

    "It's hard to believe which one of these is frowned upon by society."
    View attachment 4672 View attachment 4673
     

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