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What would you like to see changed in the Masonic experience?

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LAMason

Premium Member
do I believe that an atheist and/or agnostic person should be made a Mason? The answer is a simple "no".

I personally, do believe that atheists/agnostics have a place in our Craft.
To me those statements appear contradictory. What place do you believe that atheists/agnostics have in our Craft?

I believe that there is a distinction between an atheist and agnostic person, pertaining to the requirement. The answer here is "yes".

Can you explain what that distinction is?
 

cemab4y

Premium Member
MY MISTAKE! I went back and changed my response. I DO NOT REPEAT NOT BELIEVE THAT ATHEISTS/AGNOSTICS HAVE A PLACE IN OUR CRAFT.
 

cemab4y

Premium Member
Here it is from Wikipedia:

Agnosticism is the view that the truth values of certain claims – especially metaphysical and religious claims such as whether or not God, the divine or the supernatural exist – are unknown and perhaps unknowable.[1][2][3] In the popular sense of the term, an "agnostic", according to the philosopher William L. Rowe, is someone who neither believes nor disbelieves in the existence of God, while a theist believes that God does exist and an atheist believes that God does not exist.[2] Agnosticism is a doctrine or set of tenets[4] rather than a religion as such.

Thomas Henry Huxley, an English biologist, coined the word "agnostic" in 1869. Earlier thinkers, however, had written works that promoted agnostic points of view, such as Sanjaya Belatthaputta, a 5th-century BCE Indian philosopher who expressed agnosticism about any afterlife;[5][6][7] and Protagoras, a 5th-century BCE Greek philosopher who expressed agnosticism about "the gods".[8] The Nasadiya Sukta in the Rigveda is agnostic about the origin of the universe.[9][10][11]

Since Huxley coined the term, many other thinkers have written extensively about agnosticism.


Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1][2] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[3][4][5] Most inclusively, atheism is the absence of belief that any deities exist.[4][5][6][7] Atheism is contrasted with theism,[8][9] which, in its most general form, is the belief that at least one deity exists.[9][10][11]

The term "atheism" originated from the Greek ἄθεος (atheos), meaning "without god(s)", used as a pejorative term applied to those thought to reject the gods worshiped by the larger society.[12] With the spread of freethought, skeptical inquiry, and subsequent increase in criticism of religion, application of the term narrowed in scope. The first individuals to identify themselves using the word "atheist" lived in the 18th century.[13] Some ancient and modern religions are referred to as atheistic, as they either have no concepts of deities or deny a creator deity, yet still revere other god-like entities.

Arguments for atheism range from the philosophical to social and historical approaches. Rationales for not believing in any supernatural deity include the lack of empirical evidence;[14][15] the problem of evil; the argument from inconsistent revelations; the rejection of concepts which cannot be falsified; and the argument from nonbelief.[14][16] Although some atheists have adopted secular philosophies,[17][18] there is no one ideology or set of behaviors to which all atheists adhere.[19] Many atheists hold that atheism is a more parsimonious worldview than theism and therefore that the burden of proof lies not on the atheist to disprove the existence of God but on the theist to provide a rationale for theism.[20]

Since conceptions of atheism vary, accurate estimations of current numbers of atheists are difficult.[21] Several comprehensive global polls on the subject have been conducted by Gallup International: their 2015 poll featured over 64,000 respondents and indicated that 11% were "convinced atheists" whereas an earlier 2012 poll found that 13% of respondents were "convinced atheists."[22][23] An older survey by the BBC, in 2004, recorded atheists as comprising 8% of the world's population.[24] Other older estimates have indicated that atheists comprise 2% of the world's population, while the irreligious add a further 12%.[25] According to other studies, rates of atheism are among the highest in Western nations, again to varying degrees: the United States, for example, returned 4%,[26] while Canada returned 28%.[27] The figures for a 2010 Eurobarometer survey in the European Union (EU), reported that 20% of the EU population claimed not to believe in "any sort of spirit, God or life force".[28]
 

LAMason

Premium Member
You said:
I DO NOT REPEAT NOT BELIEVE THAT ATHEISTS/AGNOSTICS HAVE A PLACE IN OUR CRAFT.

In January 2011 Richard Dreyfuss publicly said:
“But I’m an agnostic,” Dreyfuss added. “I’m willing to be surprised, but I’m an agnostic. But if there’s a God and he’s morally involved in our affairs, those guys are in trouble.” http://cnsnews.com/news/article/act...re-s-god-politically-uncivil-guys-are-trouble

In June 2011 you were present at the meeting where he was made a Mason.

Now knowing that he publicly professes to be an agnostic, do you still say:
I consider being present at Brother Dreyfuss initiation to be the high point of my Masonic career.
 

cemab4y

Premium Member
The answer is a definite "Yes"! I consider being present at his initiation/passing/raising, to be the high point of my Masonic career. When I was there, I had no reason to believe that he did not meet the requirements for the Craft. After all, Potomac lodge investigated him, and he was unanimously voted in. The Grand Master of Masons in Washington DC was also present.

I am only speculating, but maybe Brother Dreyfuss felt differently on the day of his initiation. Maybe he has decided to modify his religious views. I have no way of knowing.

Please give this a rest. If you wish to inquire about the personal religious views of this man, just ask him yourself, and don't ask me.

C.S. Lewis was a "devout" atheist, then he modified his views, and wrote "Mere Christianity" (and other books).

I will say, that if any man is a member of the Craft, he decides to abandon belief in the Deity, then he should consider resigning the Craft. If a man is in Masonry, and he ceases to meet any of the requirements, then he should resign, because he is in the Craft under "false pretenses".
 

LAMason

Premium Member
I do not need a Wikipedia course on the difference between agnosticism and atheism, I am fully aware of the difference.

My question was:
Do you believe that there is a distinction between agnostic and atheist as it pertains to the requirement for a belief in a Supreme Being?

You responded:
I believe that there is a distinction between an atheist and agnostic person, pertaining to the requirement. The answer here is "yes".

I asked:
Can you explain what that distinction is?

You replied with the Wikipedia citation.

So I will clarify, In my opinion Freemasonry requires that a man reply with an unequivocal affirmative response to the question: Do you believe in a Supreme Being? Neither an agnostic or atheist can do that, so what do you see as the distinction between them in answering that question?
 

cemab4y

Premium Member
I believe your conception parallels mine. Since neither can answer this question, in the affirmative (honestly), then neither an atheist, nor an agnostic has any place in our Craft.

I really see no "distinction" in the traditional sense, pertaining to the requirement. My response is somewhat unclear.

There IS a distinction between an atheist and an agnostic. With respect to whether a man who holds either of these beliefs (or non-beliefs, if you wish), in answering and meeting the requirements to be a Freemason, there really is no "distinction".

My bad.
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
coachn said:
If you want to change the Masonic experience, then you best focus upon first practicing Masonry and not getting distracted by having the organization involved in things that are related but not directed toward Masonry's purpose.

---I have little interest in changing the Masonic (and appendant bodies) experience.
Then why create a thread asking for Brothers to share on that very thing? Your posts are very confused.
This may sound strange, but it is a fact.
MAY?!?!?!
I would like very much to see more use of modern technology. I would like to see more daylight lodges, to accommodate our aging population and shift workers. I would like to see more care and support for our Masonic widows.
And none of this will change the masonic experience you have no interest changing? Very confused indeed! If this would not CHANGE the EXPERIENCE, why bring it up at all? It's off topic according to you.
... I am out in the Kuwaiti desert. There are no lodges here, and I have only met one other Mason, since I have been in country. It is virtually impossible to practice any Masonry here, so there is no point in telling me to do the impossible.
So, you are of the opinion that one MUST have a Lodge to practice Masonry then? That sounds like Freemasonry not Masonry.

coachn said: The Society as a whole doesn't even begin to do what it should be doing and instead redirects the attention of its members toward things that are "nice" but not its primary purpose.

--Since when is Masonry a "society"?
Did I ever say that?
I have never found it to be so.
Me Too!
What are these things that members are being "redirected" towards?
Things having nothing to do with the business of the lodge.
What do think should be its "primary purpose"?
The Primary Purpose is: Making (as in "initiating") Masons by putting them through plays called "rituals".
What it should be: Cultivating Members toward Mastery.
coachn said: The presented opportunities for further distraction and the motivation for further distraction are evidence that some members still think the purpose is anything but what members should be focusing upon.

--Fill us in. If you think that Masonry is not focusing on the proper "targets", then where should we "aim". It sounds to me, like you are more interested in changing the Masonic experience, than you admit to.
The aim is as stated previously. There is nothing more to it, unless you wish to add things that distract men from this activity.
coachn said:
The "basics" aren't even known much less understood. They are not running meetings or degrees. They re not minutes or treasury reports. They are not fundraising to compensate for low dues. They are not improving attendance or the "freemasonic" experience, not to be confused with the "Masonic" experience.

--OK! Then what? How would you convey these "basics", without making any changes?
Great questions. I already have done so and have made absolutely no changes in the organization whatsoever. If you are interested, follow the links in my signature to see what I have conveyed.

coachn said:
None of these things are the basics of Masonry. None of these things contribute to making a good man better. The society as a whole has no clue how to do this, yet they fight vehemently to preserve codes that are the very thing that they need to pay attention to and follow to better the existing members.

--Most masons fight to preserve the "status quo". More effort is expended on stopping any new idea, or modernizing our administrative procedures, than are spent on any other endeavour.

Yup. Business as usual for sure.

coachn said:
Go ahead and throw ideas at the wall or the fan or in the air. Until those ideas have anything to do with bettering the members of the organization directly, and making them into Builders, you're distracting them from Masonry's purpose.
--I am delighted to discuss new ideas and projects. The Shrine was a social club for over 50 years, before someone suggested that a hospital needed to be opened in Shreveport, Louisiana in 1922. I am sure that the hospital program "distracted" from the purposes of the Shrine. I am also certain that the thousands of children who have been treated in the hospitals are grateful for this distraction.

In Kentucky, there was a Masonic orphan's home. The Grand Lodge determined that the need could be better served in other venues, so the orphan home program was discontinued.

As we discussed previously, there are over 100 appendant/concordant bodies. (If you count the clandestine and international organizations). The wide majority of Masonically-affiliated charitable activities occur in the appendant/concordant bodies. (IMHO- This is by far the best way to administer and promote these programs).
All of which can and should be done outside of the Freemasonic Organization so that they can focus on their primary purpose - Initiating members - with some possible hope that one day they shall also apply themselves toward cultivating actual Mastery.
 

pointwithinacircle2

Rapscallion
Premium Member
So I will clarify, In my opinion Freemasonry requires that a man reply with an unequivocal affirmative response to the question: Do you believe in a Supreme Being? Neither an agnostic or atheist can do that, so what do you see as the distinction between them in answering that question?
I have taken the liberty of pulling this idea out and starting a new thread. I hope that everyone who has shared on this topic will take a look at it.

http://myfreemasonry.com/threads/why-does-freemasonry-require-a-belief-in-god.25316/
 

cemab4y

Premium Member
Then why create a thread asking for Brothers to share on that very thing? Your posts are very confused.

--Read the title of this thread carefully. The operative word is YOU Y-O-U. I am interested in finding out what other Masons would like to see changed. I know that none of my ideas are ever going to see reality, Masons do not believe in change. This thread is for discussion purposes only. All of my ideas are "pipe dreams", even "crack pipe dreams". ALL are fantasy, none will see reality. Masonry will not change.

MAY?!?!?!

And none of this will change the masonic experience you have no interest changing? Very confused indeed! If this would not CHANGE the EXPERIENCE, why bring it up at all? It's off topic according to you.

--See the above.

So, you are of the opinion that one MUST have a Lodge to practice Masonry then? That sounds like Freemasonry not Masonry.

--I have found it easier to practice masonry in a group setting. Either in a lodge or in a "square and compass" club.


Did I ever say that?

Me Too!

Things having nothing to do with the business of the lodge.

The Primary Purpose is: Making (as in "initiating") Masons by putting them through plays called "rituals".
What it should be: Cultivating Members toward Mastery.

The aim is as stated previously. There is nothing more to it, unless you wish to add things that distract men from this activity.

Great questions. I already have done so and have made absolutely no changes in the organization whatsoever. If you are interested, follow the links in my signature to see what I have conveyed.



Yup. Business as usual for sure.


All of which can and should be done outside of the Freemasonic Organization so that they can focus on their primary purpose - Initiating members - with some possible hope that one day they shall also apply themselves toward cultivating actual Mastery.


---If you think that the primary purpose of Freemasonry is to initiate new members, then we are failing miserably. See the membership statistics at

www.msana.com

Masonry is LOSING members. (Not all Masons believe this, you should see the hate mail I get!) One man wrote me ,complaining about the "flood gates being open". I answered him, saying that the flood gates are indeed open, just that the membership is flooding OUT!
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
coachn said:
Then why create a thread asking for Brothers to share on that very thing? Your posts are very confused.

--Read the title of this thread carefully.
I have, repeatedly. You seem to be contributing quite a few ideas all targeting change.

Masons do not believe in change.

Perhaps the Freemasons you hang with. That has not been the case with the Brothers I hang with.

This thread is for discussion purposes only. All of my ideas are "pipe dreams", even "crack pipe dreams".
Yup. I concur.
ALL are fantasy, none will see reality. Masonry will not change.
Masonry doesn't have to. It is designed to change members, not itself.
coachn said: So, you are of the opinion that one MUST have a Lodge to practice Masonry then? That sounds like Freemasonry not Masonry.

--I have found it easier to practice masonry in a group setting. Either in a lodge or in a "square and compass" club.
To each his own then. You have not addressed the question however.
coachn said: The Primary Purpose is: Making (as in "initiating") Masons by putting them through plays called "rituals".
What it should be: Cultivating Members toward Mastery.
The aim is as stated previously. There is nothing more to it, unless you wish to add things that distract men from this activity.
Great questions. I already have done so and have made absolutely no changes in the organization whatsoever. If you are interested, follow the links in my signature to see what I have conveyed.
Yup. Business as usual for sure.
All of which can and should be done outside of the Freemasonic Organization so that they can focus on their primary purpose - Initiating members - with some possible hope that one day they shall also apply themselves toward cultivating actual Mastery.
---If you think that the primary purpose of Freemasonry is to initiate new members, then we are failing miserably.
You have failed to comprehend what I have written. There is the purpose that is currently being served, which is what you immediately grabbed hold of. Then there is the purpose that you asked me about having to do with what I thought is should be. Your response shows that you did not read and understand what I wrote. Which makes me wonder if you have studied any of the trivium.

The organization is not failing in its current purpose. It is doing exactly what it is designed to do. It could do so much more to cultivate Masterful members though and that is where it fails.
Masonry is LOSING members.
It is only Freemasonry that is losing members. Masonry continually reaps this benefit when its members realize the society is not practicing what it preaches and go off on their own to seek these ends outside the organization.
(Not all Masons believe this, you should see the hate mail I get!)
I fail to see how such comments would ever be the focus of any of your hate mail. :D
One man wrote me ,complaining about the "flood gates being open". I answered him, saying that the flood gates are indeed open, just that the membership is flooding OUT!
<snicker> Great analogy.
 
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RyanC

Registered User
If I am not mistaken the one day class is the same as making a Mason on Sight, as you need a special dispensation from the Grand Master to have a one day class. Please correct me if I am wrong in this.
 

cemab4y

Premium Member
If I am not mistaken the one day class is the same as making a Mason on Sight, as you need a special dispensation from the Grand Master to have a one day class. Please correct me if I am wrong in this.

(Repeating: I am NOT an expert on the laws, rules, and regulations of the Grand Lodge of Washington DC)

Some (not all) grand Lodges, permit the Grand Master, to make a man a Mason "at sight". . I read that Danny Thomas and Ronald Reagan, were made Masons in this manner (I have no direct knowledge of this, and I have no documentation).

General Douglas MacArthur was definitely made a Mason 'at sight'. See:

http://watch.pair.com/macarthur-6-freemasonry.html

A "one-day class", is when ALL of the craft degrees are performed in one day. The candidate receives the EA,FC,and MM in one sitting. You go to the lodge at 0600 on a Saturday morning, and the degrees are performed one after the other. By lunchtime you are a Master Mason. My USA residence is in Virginia. The Grand Lodge of Virginia permits each district to hold one (1) "one-day class" per year, at the discretion of the Deputy District Grand Master. Not all districts will hold a "ODC" in a given year.

Obviously, the regulations vary from Grand Lodge to Grand Lodge. Not all GLs permit ODCs. Some Masons call a man who has completed a ODC a "McMason".

There is a difference between a ODC and making a man a Mason "at sight".

Hope that clarifies.
 
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coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
I: What Makes (Initiates) you a Mason?
R: My Obligation!

Whether ODC or Mason At Sight, the Obligation is STILL required or the "Making" is null and void. Making (Initiating and Accepting are all synonymous terms!) a Mason "At Sight" means performing an Initiation of a person with an impromptu Degree ceremony. The "at sight" refers to the GMs ability to convene "Occasional" Lodges for the purposes of Making (as in "Initiating") without the usual required scheduling (charters or warrants); that is his prerogative. However:

1) The minimal required number of officers is still required to proceed.
2) An affirmative vote of the members present is still required to proceed.
3) The Initiation Obligations are still required for the "Making" to be binding.​

Any uninformed GM who makes effort to exercise this "Making a Mason at Sight" prerogative without these requirements (and possibly others) has violated the intent and administration of the "at sight" landmark.

ODCs are scheduled and hence do not qualify as "at sight" events.

(source: http://www.masonicdictionary.com/sight.html)
 
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LAMason

Premium Member
Dreyfuss%20At%20Sight_Page_1.jpg

Dreyfuss%20At%20Sight_Page_2.jpg

Dreyfuss%20At%20Sight_Page_3.jpg

http://www.dcgrandlodge.org/uploads/6/9/5/4/6954862/voice2011-vol28no2-final.pdf
 

cemab4y

Premium Member
The whole point of this discussion topic, is to hatch and "massage" ideas.
Q:
Oh! Thanks for pointing this out. I thought is was merely to share what each poster wanted to change about their organizational experiences; not to drum up ideas to change the organization. End Q.

Delighted to help! Most people pick up on this concept right away.

I have been a Mason for 33 years, and I have not been able to change anything in all this time. The only thing I ever convinced my home lodge to do was to buy a copy of "101 ways to improve your lodge". They ignored all of the ideas in the text.

Masonry is not going to see any major changes, not it the organizational structure, and not in the administrative procedures. If you could just see the fury which Masons employ to fight change, you would be impressed.
 

Jason A. Mitchell

Premium Member
Masonry is not going to see any major changes, not it the organizational structure, and not in the administrative procedures. If you could just see the fury which Masons employ to fight change, you would be impressed.

That is a jurisdictional limitation. Other Jurisdictions have made significant changes both at the Grand and Local level.
 

cemab4y

Premium Member
If your lodge/Grand Lodge is making progress to deal with the 21st century, I applaud you. Please post some of the progress here, I am very interested!
 

cemab4y

Premium Member
You left out all your efforts to establish a Masonic "employment bureau" and what about your efforts to get Masonic license plates and your advocacy for a
"national" GL.
If I was as discontented with Masonry as you appear to be, I would resign.

I have left out many of my efforts over the past 33 years that I have been a Mason. To be more accurate, I have done some research to re-establish a Masonic Employment Bureau in Virginia. Since most Masons are loath to make any changes and to bring in anything new, I have often suggested bringing back some activity which Masonry did in the past. At least, this way, I do not have to hear "We never did it that way before".

Masonic Employment Bureaus are one of our splendid traditions. During the Great Depression of the1930's, Many (not all) of the Grand Lodges/Lodges in the USA assisted the brothers in locating employment. The result was that the overall unemployment rate for Masons was lower than for the remainder of the public. (Don't ask for documentation, I do not have it).

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day saints (The Mormons) operate a national network of employment bureaus, to assist their membership (AND ANYONE ELSE) in seeking employment. Classes are offered in resume preparation, and how to seek work on the internet,etc. You can participate in practice interviews, which are videotaped and then you get advice.

I believe that we could emulate the process which the Mormons use, and assist our membership, and dependents AND ANYONE ELSE, who needs employment.

The government operated employment agencies are just not cutting it, in assisting people in locating work.

For the record, I have NEVER advocated the creation of a national Grand Lodge, no way, never.

I am NOT discontented with Masonry. I am disappointed with the direction that the Craft is taking both in my lodge, my Grand Lodge, and in the USA as a whole. I gave up a long time ago, in trying to initiate any substantive changes, but I enjoy discussing the topic, and "massaging" some ideas.

(If you scan through this thread, you will see where I suggested to my state senator to obtain a Masonic license plate for Kentucky. )
 
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