Free Will

[Morris]

When you compare choices to free will then yes I can agree.

I read someone talk about predestination. I don't think fate (intervention) is the same as predestination. I don't subscribe to that but I do believe in fate. For today atleast, haha.

Rhetoric is definitely not my strong suit but pointwithinacircle laid out my way of thinking perfectly.

Seine talked about lack of freewill is lack of meaning. I disagree in that with the right spiritual well being and attitude anyone can have meaning in their life.

Please don't let me kill the conversation because I for one have learned a lot and contemplated a lot. I rather enjoy overthinking things!

 

[Morris]

LOL! Good one! Blaming free will upon having no choice but to have it! AWESOME!

If I were to think I caught a red light that spared me from a traffic accident I would call that fate. I could have driven faster (free will) to beat the light but didn't because fate intervened. I would never use think of using the word blame.

Perhaps you can add some value to the conversation.

 

[coachn]

If I were to think I caught a red light that spared me from a traffic accident I would call that fate. I could have driven faster (free will) to beat the light but didn't because fate intervened. I would never use think of using the word blame.

Perhaps you can add some value to the conversation.

It was just the way that you wrote it Bro., that's all. It sounded as if you were saying in that short blurb that you were blaming fate that you now have to exercise your free will! I liked the irony.

 

[BryanMaloney]

It was just the way that you wrote it Bro., that's all. It sounded as if you were saying in that short blurb that you were blaming fate that you now have to exercise your free will! I liked the irony.

And it sounds like it could be quite valid, too--almost Greek in its tragic implications.

 

[JVan357]

Careful, next thing you know we'll have a philosophical schism and begin a sect of Calvanistic Freemasons. ;-)

HA! I am a Calvinist Freemason!

 

[Morris]

It was just the way that you wrote it Bro., that's all. It sounded as if you were saying in that short blurb that you were blaming fate that you now have to exercise your free will! I liked the irony.

Sorry I mistook your post. The e-world is often hard for me to navigate which is why I try to read more than type.

 

[BryanMaloney]

HA! I am a Calvinist Freemason!

You could not choose to have not become a Mason?

 

[JVan357]

Your understanding of Calvinism (Reformed Theology) is incorrect. (Unless you're only joking) Calvinism says one can never seek God, that human free will will always choose the things that are not of God until He regenerates the heart. I think what you speak of is hyper-calvinism. The average Calvinist does not believe in "hyper-calvinism."

"Free will hath all the power in the world to send a man to hell, but never to heaven." -Charles Spurgeon

 

[coachn]

Your understanding of Calvinism (Reformed Theology) is incorrect. (Unless you're only joking) Calvinism says one can never seek God, that human free will will always choose the things that are not of God until He regenerates the heart. I think what you speak of is hyper-calvinism. The average Calvinist does not believe in "hyper-calvinism."

"Free will hath all the power in the world to send a man to hell, but never to heaven." -Charles Spurgeon

YA SEE, THIS IS WHY I LOVE MASONIC DISCOURSE!!!! ;-)

 

[JVan357]

Not sure if that is sarcasm Coachn? lol

 

[coachn]

Not sure if that is sarcasm Coachn? lol

It's Genuine Delight my Brother. Thank You for posting.

 

[JVan357]

Could you define hyper-Calvinism?
(Not for the purposes of debate but only to understand)

Absolutely Brother,
Hyper Calvinism is not necessarily a Theological stance as much as it is a misunderstanding of what reformed theologians historically called Divine Election. Divine election is the belief that God elects those who He will save and has done so from the foundation of the world.
A "hyper-Calvinist" view of this is that because God predestines those who He will save, He also predestines everything else. Basically meaning that there is no free will at all. In this belief evangelism is also not seen in high regard due to the fact that God will save them regardless of whether or not we bring them the Gospel.
A typical "Calvinist", (me) will say that a man has all the free will in the world to send himself to eternal damnation but can never search for the things of God unless God first regenerates him or her. Americans in general hate this doctrine because of our definition of freedom but these are the doctrines that sprung from the reformation and the belief in sola scriptura or scripture alone. Of course other denominations (Catholicism, some Southern Baptists, Pentecostal, etc.) will disagree with this doctrine due to the fact that church tradition holds as much water as scripture. (even though the SBC will deny this) Reformed denominations include Presbyterian, Lutheran, Some Epicopalian, Reformed Baptist, Dutch Reformed, and even some Whitefield Methodists.
This is a VERY broad explanation and there is MUCH more to it than this but in the context of what is being discussed in this thread, I think this is the answer you are sort of looking for.

 

[pointwithinacircle2]

unless God first regenerates him or her

Thank you for your explanations, they have been enlightening. If I may also ask for a clarification, what does it mean to be regenerated by God?

 

[JVan357]

Thank you for your explanations, they have been enlightening. If I may also ask for a clarification, what does it mean to be regenerated by God?

The Bible says the human heart is desperately wicked above all things. That man is dead in his trespasses and sins. Now, a dead man cannot arise on his own. Just as a baby has nothing to do with his birth. Jesus said you must be "born again." Both of these connotations involve something a human heart cannot do on it's own. In order for the heart to accept Jesus, it must be softened, opened and regenerated. Changed from a stony heart to one of "flesh" as it says in Isaiah. Without this regeneration of the heart, one will never be able to call Jesus the Son of God.

Hope I helped? I feel like I did more harm than good? lol

 

[BryanMaloney]

Absolutely Brother,
Hyper Calvinism is not necessarily a Theological stance as much as it is a misunderstanding of what reformed theologians historically called Divine Election. Divine election is the belief that God elects those who He will save and has done so from the foundation of the world.

Of course, this means that, if God chooses not to pick you, it's still 100% God's choice and 100% God's responsibility, since we have no input into the matter. Those God rejects are rejected through no fault of their own, since those God chooses are chosen through no virtue of their own. If the elect cannot earn anything, then the condemned are equally as incapacitated. If we cannot refuse salvation, and God, alone, with zero input from people, decides who is given it, then we cannot be blamed for not accepting what was never given to us. It also makes praying for others' souls pointless. God already decided, He has fixed the outcomes. The measly prayers of unworthy mortals will have no influence and are of no use nor benefit.

 

[coachn]

Yet, when you earnest Believe that you hold the Breath of God within you (see that nasty Garden in Eden story for the clue), and that very Breath provides you the God Given Ability to Choose using God's Free Will, then you are back to square one with God making the Choice, but doing so Through You! So if there is anyone to blame, it would be God's fault for causing the whole thing to begin with.

 

[coachn]

... salvation, ...

What's that?

 

[JVan357]

Oh yes we can be blamed...unless we are perfect and as holy as the creator? If we are not, then God in his perfect just ways is 100% justified in destroying us. None of us deserve heaven, its bestowed grace that allows any of us to receive communion with God.
If 10 murderers go to trial and 8 get the death penalty but the judge lets 2 of them go completely free, is it unjust that the other 8 get the chair? By no means, all 10 deserve it.
God has chosen every single human he ever dealt with. (And nation) was it unfair he chose Israel and not Greece?
The typical argument here is that it's unfair of God to do all of this. However, whats unfair is that any of us in our sinful state ever get to be with Him. Grace changes everything. Unmerited Favor! If it depends on our decision, then it's not unmerited. That is Calvinism. (Broadly)

 

[JVan357]

And praying for others will never be pointless. We do not know what God has in store for us or others. That is why we evangelize and pray. Beseeching the Almighty in every endeavor. We are His tools, He will never be ours.

 

[coachn]

Oh yes we can be blamed...unless we are perfect and as holy as the creator? If we are not, then God in his perfect just ways is 100% justified in destroying us. None of us deserve heaven, its bestowed grace that allows any of us to receive communion with God.
If 10 murderers go to trial and 8 get the death penalty but the judge lets 2 of them go completely free, is it unjust that the other 8 get the chair? By no means, all 10 deserve it.
God has chosen every single human he ever dealt with. (And nation) was it unfair he chose Israel and not Greece?
The typical argument here is that it's unfair of God to do all of this. However, whats unfair is that any of us in our sinful state ever get to be with Him. Grace changes everything. Unmerited Favor! If it depends on our decision, then it's not unmerited. That is Calvinism. (Broadly)

If this was a response to my post, you took it far too seriously. That being said, let the fun & games begin!

1) Adam and Eve were not tossed because they ate the knowledge fruit. They were tossed for two specific reasons.

a) They were blaming someone else for their freewill choices and basically said that they did not want to be held to account for their choices. This made them both irresponsible and dangerous.
b) They might eat from the tree of life and therefore live for ever, and this would mean that irresponsible and dangerous and immortal people would be in his garden mucking it up and that was simply too intolerable for God to allow. Boot Time occurred very rapidly thereafter!​

2) We are all perfectly human. We were designed this way by God (by way of God's brilliant idea - EVOLUTION).
3) God needs no Justification. Men do. God doesn't.
4) We are all in heaven now (at least according to the Gospel of Thomas). And accordingly, we deserve all that Heaven shall shove our way as a result of that God given reality. It is our choices that makes the experience either hot or cool.​