The only issue I see with the Shriners for example is that it has created an organziation (Childrens Hospitals) which even though created by Masons could not just shut down tomorrow if all Grand Lodges de-recognized them. In that respect and that respect only it has outgrown the sum of its parts. I would like to think Travelling Man that you would be wrong about dropping the masonic part. I am a Mason and became a Shriner because it is a masonic body that helps kids. The men that make up every Shrine Club and Shrine Center are Masons. As such I would like to think well enough of my brothers that this would never be the case and that Shriners will always be Masons first. The whole purpose of my suggestion is not to hurt the Shrine, but to help the craft and the Shrine If you are joining a Masonic lodge to just be a Shriner then you are joining for the wrong reason in my opinion. I joined a Shrine Club that a Shrine club that started off with just 13 members and it became known as one of the best clubs in its District from a fund raising point of view. My point to that that is that we must emphasize quality over quantity whether it be the Shrine or the Lodge. Larger numbers do not always make for a better experience.