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Esoteric Masonry

Bevan Jones

Registered User
I haven't been around for a long, long time on here, but I have done a huge amount of research into the historical origins of the Craft, as well as the "Grail" or lapsit exillis i.e., Wolfram's version specifically. I have no doubt that Masonry is the evolution of Tironesian and Templar thought and relationships formed from 1128 onwards, right from Hugh de Payns relationship with Rotrou II of Chateaudun (patron of Bernard of Tiron) and Alfonso "the Battler" (donated his possessions to the Templars as thanks for assisting with the Reconquista) through to William St. Clair in 1450 (the Tiro's - apprentices - built Rosslyn Chapel, alongside the paid-for master builders.)

For me, most esoteric / hermetic content etc. derives from the threads evolving from this root relationship. Specifically, after what happened in 1170 with the death of Thomas Becket, the "blessed son" or "...." in Scots Gaelic. Best you google translate that yourself.... After that date the genuine secrets of a master mason were lost, and the interpretation of the "substitute secrets" led to much alchemical confusion, the philosopher's stone etc. Note that the philosopher's stone diagram can be recreated using the locations of the various Tironesian abbeys in Scotland, the level and the square etc.

There is also a line of "Heredom" from the Roman temple ruins at the summit of Mt. Hermon, through to Iona (Icolmkill, for Royal Order of Scotland masons) in Scotland. In Scotland it passes through the early abbeys of Brinkburn, Jedburgh, Selkirk (original location before it was moved to Kelso on request from de Payns in 1128), "the Lyne" Roman fort, Camelot (Rock of Dunbarton and Robert de Brus' Cardross estate), Kilmartin and then Iona. This offers us some idea of where the original teachings of the 16-year old Jesus may have landed, together with the later emergence of Celtic Christianity in Scotland after Columba.

I see a lot of masonic ritual as supporting the original teachings of Jesus vs. the dogma of the established churches. Choosing the sovereign, servant heart and to do the work offers us the key to the majesty of the Divine. "Laborare est orare". As Parzifal (Baldwin I, Latin Emperor of Constantinople) discovers when faced with the "grail" stone, the right question to ask is "what ails thee?". To which the correct answer is always "desire, to wish for" (etymology of Venus), the root of all suffering. For, as Solomon discovers in his lament of Ecclesiastes, every moment spent chasing the serpent path of selfish wisdom, wealth and power, denies one a moment to experience the majesty of soaring as the eagle with a selfless, servant heart.

I have a family tree diagram showing the ancestral relationships between every single early grand master of Scots, Antient and Premier lodge masonry, and the offspring of William de Clair's daughters, especially the Atholl line via James Stewart, the "Black Knight" of Lorn. It's not esoteric, but it is very, very interesting. Will try to post a separate thread on it this weekend.
 
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Winter

Premium Member
I haven't been around for a long, long time on here, but I have done a huge amount of research into the historical origins of the Craft, as well as the "Grail" or lapsit exillis i.e., Wolfram's version specifically. I have no doubt that Masonry is the evolution of Tironesian and Templar thought and relationships formed from 1128 onwards, right from Hugh de Payns relationship with Rotrou II of Chateaudun (patron of Bernard of Tiron), through to William St. Clair in 1450 (the Tiro's - apprentices - built Rosslyn Chapel, alongside the paid-for master builders.)

There is also a line of "Heredom" from the Roman temple ruins at the summit of Mt. Hermon, through to Iona (Icolmkill) in Scotland. In Scotland it passes through the early abbeys of Brinkburn, Jedburgh, Selkirk (original location before it was moved to Kelso on request from de Payns in 1128), "the Lyne" Roman fort, Camelot (Rock of Dunbarton and Robert de Brus' Cardross estate), Kilmartin and then Iona. This offers us some idea of where the original teachings of the 12-year old Jesus may have landed, together with the later emergence of Celtic Christianity in Scotland after Columba.

I see a lot of masonic ritual as supporting the original teachings of Jesus vs. the dogma of the established churches. Choosing the sovereign, servant heart and to do the work offers us the key to the majesty of the Divine. "Laborare est orare". As Parzifal (Baldwin I, Latin Emperor of Constantinople) discovers when faced with the "grail" stone, the right question to ask is "what ails thee?". To which the correct answer is always "desire, to wish for" (etymology of Venus), the root of all suffering. For, as Solomon discovers in his lament of Ecclesiastes, every moment spent chasing the serpent path of selfish wisdom, wealth and power, denies one a moment to experience the majesty of soaring as the eagle with a selfless, servant heart.
I'd be interested in seeing your citation list for this theory.
 

Bevan Jones

Registered User
I'd be interested in seeing your citation list for this theory.
Yes, I expect a lot of that sort of response. Tell you what, I may take some time to write up some of my original research this weekend, "original" by definition being completely new research not found elsewhere i.e., no citation list regurgitating the same old content from others. Then folks here can decide for themselves without having to resort to other's academic backup.

Like the tired old trope that the St. Clairs couldn't have supported the Black Knights at Bannockburn as they testified against them c.1312. Well, duh! Their lands were occupied by the English until that time, and they only came around to the side of de Brus just before Bannockburn. Besides, if you understand the ancestral lines for the builder of Rosslyn Chapel, one will note that the "Templar" / Black Knight connection comes from his 2nd great grandfather on his maternal side i.e., James "the Black" Douglas, right hand man to Robert de Brus. Anyway, the Templars were associated more with the Menzies clan, and the Appin (abbey) Stewarts from Dull and Weem, that helped turn the tide for de Brus.

Anyway, Rosslyn Chapel is nice but it has nothing to do with where Jesus and/or the Templar / Tironesian connection may have stashed away the "grail" and/or their relics, documents, treasures etc. There's several other possible locations for that.
 
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Winter

Premium Member
Yes, I expect a lot of that sort of response. Tell you what, I may take some time to write up some of my original research this weekend, "original" by definition being completely new research not found elsewhere i.e., no citation list regurgitating the same old content from others. Then folks here can decide for themselves without having to resort to other's academic backup.

Like the tired old trope that the St. Clairs couldn't have supported the Black Knights at Bannockburn as they testified against them c.1312. Well, duh! Their lands were occupied by the English until that time, and they only came around to the side of de Brus just before Bannockburn. Besides, if you understand the ancestral lines for the builder of Rosslyn Chapel, one will note that the "Templar" / Black Knight connection comes from his 2nd great grandfather on his maternal side i.e., James "the Black" Douglas, right hand man to Robert de Brus. Anyway, the Templars were associated more with the Menzies clan, and the Appin (abbey) Stewarts from Dull and Weem, that helped turn the tide for de Brus.
I see why you removed all of your old postings here now. Look, if you are going to make claims to know the true historical origins of the Craft, you should probably be prepared for Brothers to ask for the sources so we can see for ourselves the information you are using to come to your conclusions. Why would I just take you at your word on the subject when SO MANY supposed scholars have published utter nonsense on the subject that gullible Brothers eat up as fast as they can print it? If a Brother asking for more information on your claims is so insulting to you that you are upset that you even returned here then I have to wonder about the veracity of your work, as I have nothing to judge it against. One of my degrees is in anthropology and I worked as an archeologist. I know how to evaluate data and draw my own conclusions. And when researcher makes a claim on historical associations and gets their knickers in a twist just because I ask for citations then all sorts of red flags rise.
 

Winter

Premium Member
Yes, I expect a lot of that sort of response. Tell you what, I may take some time to write up some of my original research this weekend, "original" by definition being completely new research not found elsewhere i.e., no citation list regurgitating the same old content from others. Then folks here can decide for themselves without having to resort to other's academic backup.

Like the tired old trope that the St. Clairs couldn't have supported the Black Knights at Bannockburn as they testified against them c.1312. Well, duh! Their lands were occupied by the English until that time, and they only came around to the side of de Brus just before Bannockburn. Besides, if you understand the ancestral lines for the builder of Rosslyn Chapel, one will note that the "Templar" / Black Knight connection comes from his 2nd great grandfather on his maternal side i.e., James "the Black" Douglas, right hand man to Robert de Brus. Anyway, the Templars were associated more with the Menzies clan, and the Appin (abbey) Stewarts from Dull and Weem, that helped turn the tide for de Brus.

Anyway, Rosslyn Chapel is nice but it has nothing to do with where Jesus and/or the Templar / Tironesian connection may have stashed away the "grail" and/or their relics, documents, treasures etc. There's several other possible locations for that.
So you edited your post after I responded removing the part I responded to so I look like the bad guy. Nice.
 

Bevan Jones

Registered User
I have no idea what part of my original post you were responding to. I edited it no doubt while you were typing your response. And I never removed my old content. I've tried finding it but I'm assuming it has been archived. Anyway, I have no need or desire to split hairs with you, and I couldn't care less about looking like the "bad guy". What are we, children?

I don't mean to derail the thread on the original esoteric enquiry but here's a diagram for you, and everyone else, to explore on your own and come to your own conclusions. Left click and hold to drag it around, and right click to zoom in and out by rotating the magnifying glass.


No citations needed as every relationship is independently verifiable, from the first Templars, Rotrou II and Alfonso "the Battler", to the first Grand Masters of Scots, Antient and Premier Lodge Freemasonry.
 

Elexir

Registered User
I have no idea what part of my original post you were responding to. I edited it no doubt while you were typing your response. And I never removed my old content. I've tried finding it but I'm assuming it has been archived. Anyway, I have no need or desire to split hairs with you, and I couldn't care less about looking like the "bad guy". What are we, children?

I don't mean to derail the thread on the original esoteric enquiry but here's a diagram for you, and everyone else, to explore on your own and come to your own conclusions. Left click and hold to drag it around, and right click to zoom in and out by rotating the magnifying glass.


No citations needed as every relationship is independently verifiable, from the first Templars, Rotrou II and Alfonso "the Battler", to the first Grand Masters of Scots, Antient and Premier Lodge Freemasonry.

The diagram is pretty worthless honestly, it could be used to prove basically anything. And since you claim to have a new theory or new proof the burden to provide citations and the actual research is up to you. It's not up to us to interpret your diagram. You also need to refute current research and provide the counterarguments.
 

Bevan Jones

Registered User
The diagram is pretty worthless honestly, it could be used to prove basically anything. And since you claim to have a new theory or new proof the burden to provide citations and the actual research is up to you. It's not up to us to interpret your diagram. You also need to refute current research and provide the counterarguments.
Right, so you don't think it's statistically significant that every early Masonic grand master is directly descended from just two men, William St. Clair of Rosslyn, and the Black Knight of Lorn?

Either way, the history is right there, one just needs to find the connecting threads. If I get the time I might come back this weekend and do a speculative post on all of it, for others to interpret for their own truth. I don't actually have any need or desire to convince anyone of my research, and I probably should have trusted my gut and stayed away from posting here in the first place.
 

Keith C

Registered User
Right, so you don't think it's statistically significant that every early Masonic grand master is directly descended from just two men, William St. Clair of Rosslyn, and the Black Knight of Lorn?

Either way, the history is right there, one just needs to find the connecting threads. If I get the time I might come back this weekend and do a speculative post on all of it, for others to interpret for their own truth. I don't actually have any need or desire to convince anyone of my research, and I probably should have trusted my gut and stayed away from posting here in the first place.

Without providing the citations, i.e. how you determined the so called "direct descendance" it is just a nice chart "confirming" your theory. Cite the records you, yourself, viewed showing each person in your chart was the offfspring of the previous.

When I was researching my family genealogy I got stuck in the early 1300s as the Church baptismal records got quite sketchy. I could easily show anyone the "family tree" and cite what Church, Borough, Town, Country records from Connecticut to the English Midlands lead from my furthest documented ancestor from 1307 to myself.

Surly if you are making such bold claims as to the ancestry of "EVERY early Masonic Grand Master" you can site such records.
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
I have no idea what part of my original post you were responding to.
Yet, you must have some idea as to what you originally posted...

I don't mean to derail the thread on the original esoteric enquiry
I suspect a "but" is coming...
but here's a diagram for you,
Do you realize adding a "but" negates and actually shows what you previously wrote as a lie? Hence the derailment that follows...
... I don't actually have any need or desire to convince anyone of my research,
and yet, here are the result, derailing the thread...
and I probably should have trusted my gut and stayed away from posting here in the first place.
Shame on you for not listening!
 

Bevan Jones

Registered User
Without providing the citations, i.e. how you determined the so called "direct descendance" it is just a nice chart "confirming" your theory. Cite the records you, yourself, viewed showing each person in your chart was the offfspring of the previous.

When I was researching my family genealogy I got stuck in the early 1300s as the Church baptismal records got quite sketchy. I could easily show anyone the "family tree" and cite what Church, Borough, Town, Country records from Connecticut to the English Midlands lead from my furthest documented ancestor from 1307 to myself.

Surly if you are making such bold claims as to the ancestry of "EVERY early Masonic Grand Master" you can site such records.

It's irrelevant that I am linked into the tree, as is Elon Musk, just for fun. Almost every single character in the chart is a well-known persona. You can literally google them and see their ancestry and their children, all public knowledge. I've probably spent the better part of 7 years part-time putting everything together, with my two main tools being thepeerage.com and the Geni world family tree, which has hundreds of qualified genealogists crowding in their research and ensuring these ancient lines are maintained correctly, referencing Medlands, old charters etc.

Where I have gone speculative is in matching Wolfram von Eschenbach's Parzifal family tree to this real-life tree. For those interested, the characters are in BOLD CAPS e.g., PARZIFAL, ARTHUR, MAZADAN etc. The way I got everything to match was to realise that PARZIFAL (Baldwin I, Latin Emperor of Constantinople) was likely the love child of Henry II, King of England and a very young Alys de France, which was an outrage considering her age and the plans for her marriage etc. History suggests that they had a child but there was no smoking gun. I suspect this is the secret kept at Gisors castle by the Templars who held the French territory of Vexin as the dowry of Alys' sister. Wolfram, in a very gentlemanly manner, suggests that Parzifal is the son of Richard "the Lionheart" and Alys instead which at least concurred with the initial marriage plan. If the matching of the trees is correct, Parzifal was given over as a foster child to the sister of Philip de Alsace, who was the source for Chretien de Troye's grail, whereas Wolfram's source was of the Champagne Templars, although the trees are essentially the same in both, and everyone is related anyway.

This may have been the last straw that served to align the Richard "the Lionheart" of England, William "the Lion" of Scotland, Philip "Augustus" of France and Thomas Becket, against Henry II. At the time of Becket's death (Dec 1170), only the Tironensian abbey of Kelso (as well as priory of Lesmahagow) was constructed. The founder of Kilwinning Abbey a few years later was Richard de Moreville, brother to Hugh de Moreville (one of the knights that killed Becket). I assume by now you've researched the manner of Becket's death and translated "blessed son" into Scots Gaelic. William "the Lion" would later found the Tironensian Abbey of Arbroath (dedicated to the memory of Becket) and his brother David (8th Earl Huntingdon) would found Lindores Abbey (home of Scots whisky).

These three abbeys are vital to construct the Philosopher's Stone, which thankfully brings us back to some esoteric content for the thread. Perhaps this points to the substitute secrets searched for so earnestly by our ancestors? Here's something for you to try in Google Earth.....
- Construct a circle with the perimeter linking the abbeys of Kelso, Kilwinning and Lindores
- Construct a level linking Kelso to Kilwinning - it also goes through the Tironensian priory of Lesmahagow
- Construct a builder's square from Arbroath, to Lindores, and Kelso
- Now extend the arms to form a triangle, with the top meeting the circle just east of Blair Atholl
- Draw the only possible square that can fit within the triangle, and then square a circle
- The mid-point of the circle (and square) is the exact location of Torpichen Preceptory (give or take a metre or two)
(you should have something looking like the below in blue, ignoring the other lines and icons, unless you're interested perhaps in finding some treasure... )

Could the Tironensians have done something like this? Sure, co-ordinates were invented well before the time of Christ. Is this just pure co-incidence? Possibly, and I've no doubt many here would argue for that. But remember that in 1564 James Sandilands, Grand Master of the Hospitallers, gave up the possessions of the order to Mary, Queen of Scots, in return for the title of Lord Torpichen and some gold. David Seton, considered by some to be the "Last Templar" in Scotland, then took up the cross after Sandiland's betrayal. The Hospitallers had of course inherited what was left of Templar possessions in Scotland, and the British version of the Order of St. John inherited what was left around 1888, with their HQ being Torpichen. The head of the Order is always the monarch, now King Charles III. And considering that he really wants his serfs to believe that "Dieu et mon droit" you can bet that if there was anything there that proved one's own sovereignty, direct relationship to the Divine, the reason to fight for freedom as per Magna Carta, Arbroath, French Revolution and US Independence etc., he definitely would not want that to go public. I digress....

PhilosopherStone.jpg

P.S. I do find it interesting that one of the modern Templar orders, uses the Earl's of Rothes and Leven's castle (Balgonie near Glenrothes) as their HQ, being the NE corner of the square.

Robert de Brus, King of Scots, was associated with the Templars and/or the grail romance, in several ways.....
- Marie de Coucy (daughter of Enguerrand III, Parzifal’s 1st cousin) marries Alexander II "the Peaceful“ King of Scots. His children were Marjorie (illegitimate, who married Alan Durward, Justiciar of Scotland) and
Alexander III (married Yolande de Dreux of the Templar Châteaudun line). Through Durward the "grail" possibly passes to the Hereditary Butlers (cup-bearers) of Scotland who later were to build Hermitage Castle, possibly its first home in Scotland. It ultimately passes to James Steward (Appin / Abbey Steward clan, and cousin of de Brus) of Perceton who rides with the banned Templars in 1307 to the sanctuary of the garth cross at the Appin of Dull. Many associate the Appin Stewards with Port Appin in Scotland, but they first settled near Dull at Innermeath, or what is known as Invermay today.

- Alexander III's son was also Alexander, Prince of Scotland, who married Margaretha van Vlaanderen, daughter of Guy de Dampierre (Parzifal’s grandson). The marriage was brief and the Prince died at Hermitage castle, although it illustrates the relationship between de Dampierre and the Scots nobility. It was likely de Dampierre who taught the Scots about the “goedendag” (long wooden shaft with spike) used later at Bannockburn, but used first at the Battle of the Golden Spurs in 1302 against King Phillip of France, the same king who later banned the Templars. It is curious that he started to plan his attack on the Templars shortly after Edward I "Hammer of the Scots" died in 1307, while on campaign against the Scots. Edward's son married Phillip's daughter and together they were dead set on breaking the Scots-Flemish (Templar) alliance. No doubt it was for something more than just the wool trade. Both had raided the London and Paris Temples to fund their wars and both owed the Templars money. After the Templars had lost Acre under the Flemish grand-master Guillaume de Beaujeu, they had lost their raison d'être and in Cyprus and France at least were simple administrators. Perhaps Scotland was where the real action was?

- Through Alexander III’s daughter (Margaret of Scotland) the knowledge of the "grail" possibly passes to the King of Norway, who later marries another Scots bride, the sister of Robert de Brus.

- de Brus was also William Marshall’s (the “greatest knight”) 2nd great-grandson, via Marshall’s daughter who married Gilbert de Clare, 5th Earl Gloucester, and signatory to Magna Carta. In fact, although Marshall wasn't himself a Templar, only taking vows on his deathbed, most Magna Carta signatories had Templar connections, such as Robert FitzWalter who donated land to the Templar Cressing estate, from where Magna Carta was planned. de Clare’s grandson, the 7th Earl Gloucester, married Alice de Lusignan. The de Lusignan’s were closely associated with the English king, but also the Templars of Cyprus, ever since Richard "the Lionheart" had sold the island to them. Their daughter was Johanna de Clare, who married the Earl of Fife. Her daughter was Isabella MacDuff who crowned Robert de Brus as king.

- de Clare also married Joan of Acre, rebellious daughter to Edward I. Joan later married Ralph de Monthermer, who famously warned de Brus (by sending him a pair of spurs) that Edward wanted to capture him at Carlisle. Ralph was later granted the earldom of Atholl by Edward I. In probably the first known case of insider trading Ralph sold the land to an English knight, just before de Brus and the Templars arrived late in 1307 to confiscate it, and give it back to Ralph.

Back to the Appin of Dull...... The Tironensians had inherited most of the Culdees' properties as the one monastic order that most sensitively blended Celtic and Catholic beliefs. Rosslyn Chapel is a good example of that. The Abbey of Dull was a great centre of learning in its time, and the nearby Weem church contains an interesting gravestone from that time. Supposedly of a local family, another interpretation could be that of two kings, five fellowcrafts, three ruffians, a sprig of acacia and a grave. The nearby Atholl Highlanders at Blair Atholl can also trace their history to a band of brave "men of Murray" who arrived in the area over 700 years ago, vowing to defend the place.

Hiram Abiff.jpg


As regards the St. Clairs and the Templars, I've already given the reasons why the early St. Clairs would have testified against them in 1312. Brus and the Templars concentrated on the highlands and Gaelic west of Scotland first, while St. Clair lands at Rosslyn were right in the middle of English control. Assuming Brus met some Templar knights on Iona (Icolmkill) during his escape from the English going into the winter of 1306, then it does help explain how he managed to source dozens of galleys, hundreds of men and weapons, and then went on to wipe out the English at every battle once he landed back on the mainland in 1307. Of course his close friend MacDonald, Lord of the Isles, was able to supply some men from his wife's Irish dowry, but not hundreds. Having completed the battles of Turnberry, Glen Trool and Loudon, de Brus rested at the Stewart's Dundonald Castle, and then sat "afterwards at Kilwinning, where the King of Scotland first sat as Grand Master". At least according to the Royal Order of Scotland ritual.

Many year's later, once the Templars had integrated with the Tironensian builders and/or Black Knights, they would choose 24th June, St. John's day, to fight the Battle of Bannockburn. Before the start of Bannockburn, Edward II reportedly said in surprise, “Look, they pray for mercy!" "For mercy, yes," one of his attendants replied, "but from God, not you. These men will conquer or die." Which words might remind you of the famous line uttered by the 8th Templar Grand Master, Odo de Saint-Amand, when refusing his freedom from Saladin's imprisonment, "A Templar has to either conquer or die". Or perhaps the phrase "Vincere aut Mori" in the Rose Croix 11th degree. Or the motto of the MacDougall clan "Buaidh no Bas" with the image of a knight holding his prayer cross, the Templar's cross crosslet fitchee, which he would plant before battle while saying his prayers. The MacDougall heiress married into the Appin Stewart clan, from whom every early noble grand master of Scots, Antient and Premier lodge freemasonry is descended.

Essentially, I believe the Tironensian Order and the Templars were very closely associated in the protection of certain secrets, either from Alfonso "the Battler", or from what they discovered below the Temple Mount. The patron of the Tironensian order was Rotrou II, cousin to Alfonso "the Battler", King of Aragon, and served as his governor in Aragon for a time. Alfonso split his possessions in his will, with the Templars receiving many of the spoils as thanks for their assistance with the Reconquista. However, his chalice stayed with the kings of Aragon and now many believe it's the chalice from the last supper, kept at Valencia Cathedral. The 2nd grand master of the templars administered Alfonso's will and the 3rd grand master was Louis VII, King of France's right-hand man during the 2nd crusade. Maybe they got his precious Garnet of Jaca, since Wolfram's tale tells us the grail is a garnet hyacinth, a "lapsit exsillis", or the stone that fell from heaven.

I guess we will never know, but it is interesting to examine all the historical threads. With an open mind, if at all possible.
 
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Bevan Jones

Registered User
Yet, you must have some idea as to what you originally posted...


I suspect a "but" is coming...

Do you realize adding a "but" negates and actually shows what you previously wrote as a lie? Hence the derailment that follows...

and yet, here are the result, derailing the thread...

Shame on you for not listening!
This is quite possibly the pettiest, personal attack I've read.
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
This is quite possibly the pettiest, personal attack I've read.
Your contribution would have been better received had you started your own thread and titled it accordingly. As things stand, you hijacked this one - against your admittedly professed better judgment - then whined about this being pointed out.
Wow. What a special guy you are.
Who's "personally" attacking who now?
I shall depart before causing further disharmony.
trusting your gut is good

BTW - Did anyone else suspect that this guy looks amazingly like Jeff Peace.
 
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Bevan Jones

Registered User
I had no idea that "hijacking" a thread was such a sin on here, and that someone would grab onto one idle comment like a dog with a bone.

I've also no idea who Jeff Peace is. I'm based in South Africa.

ADMINS: Please delete my profile and personal details - I can't seem to unregister and/or delete my own profile from the Accounts section.
 

Glen Cook

G A Cook
Site Benefactor
Your contribution would have been better received had you started your own thread and titled it accordingly. As things stand, you hijacked this one - against your admittedly professed better judgment - then whined about this being pointed out.

Who's "personally" attacking who now?

trusting your gut is good

BTW - Did anyone else suspect that this guy looks amazingly like Jeff Peace.
Wow, There’s a a blast from the narcissistic past.
 

Glen Cook

G A Cook
Site Benefactor
Still no citation.
Geni world is not credible and not acceptable for genealogical proofs.
It's irrelevant that I am linked into the tree, as is Elon Musk, just for fun. Almost every single character in the chart is a well-known persona. You can literally google them and see their ancestry and their children, all public knowledge. I've probably spent the better part of 7 years part-time putting everything together, with my two main tools being thepeerage.com and the Geni world family tree, which has hundreds of qualified genealogists crowding in their research and ensuring these ancient lines are maintained correctly, referencing Medlands, old charters etc.

Where I have gone speculative is in matching Wolfram von Eschenbach's Parzifal family tree to this real-life tree. For those interested, the characters are in BOLD CAPS e.g., PARZIFAL, ARTHUR, MAZADAN etc. The way I got everything to match was to realise that PARZIFAL (Baldwin I, Latin Emperor of Constantinople) was likely the love child of Henry II, King of England and a very young Alys de France, which was an outrage considering her age and the plans for her marriage etc. History suggests that they had a child but there was no smoking gun. I suspect this is the secret kept at Gisors castle by the Templars who held the French territory of Vexin as the dowry of Alys' sister. Wolfram, in a very gentlemanly manner, suggests that Parzifal is the son of Richard "the Lionheart" and Alys instead which at least concurred with the initial marriage plan. If the matching of the trees is correct, Parzifal was given over as a foster child to the sister of Philip de Alsace, who was the source for Chretien de Troye's grail, whereas Wolfram's source was of the Champagne Templars, although the trees are essentially the same in both, and everyone is related anyway.

This may have been the last straw that served to align the Richard "the Lionheart" of England, William "the Lion" of Scotland, Philip "Augustus" of France and Thomas Becket, against Henry II. At the time of Becket's death (Dec 1170), only the Tironensian abbey of Kelso (as well as priory of Lesmahagow) was constructed. The founder of Kilwinning Abbey a few years later was Richard de Moreville, brother to Hugh de Moreville (one of the knights that killed Becket). I assume by now you've researched the manner of Becket's death and translated "blessed son" into Scots Gaelic. William "the Lion" would later found the Tironensian Abbey of Arbroath (dedicated to the memory of Becket) and his brother David (8th Earl Huntingdon) would found Lindores Abbey (home of Scots whisky).

These three abbeys are vital to construct the Philosopher's Stone, which thankfully brings us back to some esoteric content for the thread. Perhaps this points to the substitute secrets searched for so earnestly by our ancestors? Here's something for you to try in Google Earth.....
- Construct a circle with the perimeter linking the abbeys of Kelso, Kilwinning and Lindores
- Construct a level linking Kelso to Kilwinning - it also goes through the Tironensian priory of Lesmahagow
- Construct a builder's square from Arbroath, to Lindores, and Kelso
- Now extend the arms to form a triangle, with the top meeting the circle just east of Blair Atholl
- Draw the only possible square that can fit within the triangle, and then square a circle
- The mid-point of the circle (and square) is the exact location of Torpichen Preceptory (give or take a metre or two)
(you should have something looking like the below in blue, ignoring the other lines and icons, unless you're interested perhaps in finding some treasure... )

Could the Tironensians have done something like this? Sure, co-ordinates were invented well before the time of Christ. Is this just pure co-incidence? Possibly, and I've no doubt many here would argue for that. But remember that in 1564 James Sandilands, Grand Master of the Hospitallers, gave up the possessions of the order to Mary, Queen of Scots, in return for the title of Lord Torpichen and some gold. David Seton, considered by some to be the "Last Templar" in Scotland, then took up the cross after Sandiland's betrayal. The Hospitallers had of course inherited what was left of Templar possessions in Scotland, and the British version of the Order of St. John inherited what was left around 1888, with their HQ being Torpichen. The head of the Order is always the monarch, now King Charles III. And considering that he really wants his serfs to believe that "Dieu et mon droit" you can bet that if there was anything there that proved one's own sovereignty, direct relationship to the Divine, the reason to fight for freedom as per Magna Carta, Arbroath, French Revolution and US Independence etc., he definitely would not want that to go public. I digress....

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P.S. I do find it interesting that one of the modern Templar orders, uses the Earl's of Rothes and Leven's castle (Balgonie near Glenrothes) as their HQ, being the NE corner of the square.

Robert de Brus, King of Scots, was associated with the Templars and/or the grail romance, in several ways.....
- Marie de Coucy (daughter of Enguerrand III, Parzifal’s 1st cousin) marries Alexander II "the Peaceful“ King of Scots. His children were Marjorie (illegitimate, who married Alan Durward, Justiciar of Scotland) and
Alexander III (married Yolande de Dreux of the Templar Châteaudun line). Through Durward the "grail" possibly passes to the Hereditary Butlers (cup-bearers) of Scotland who later were to build Hermitage Castle, possibly its first home in Scotland. It ultimately passes to James Steward (Appin / Abbey Steward clan, and cousin of de Brus) of Perceton who rides with the banned Templars in 1307 to the sanctuary of the garth cross at the Appin of Dull. Many associate the Appin Stewards with Port Appin in Scotland, but they first settled near Dull at Innermeath, or what is known as Invermay today.

- Alexander III's son was also Alexander, Prince of Scotland, who married Margaretha van Vlaanderen, daughter of Guy de Dampierre (Parzifal’s grandson). The marriage was brief and the Prince died at Hermitage castle, although it illustrates the relationship between de Dampierre and the Scots nobility. It was likely de Dampierre who taught the Scots about the “goedendag” (long wooden shaft with spike) used later at Bannockburn, but used first at the Battle of the Golden Spurs in 1302 against King Phillip of France, the same king who later banned the Templars. It is curious that he started to plan his attack on the Templars shortly after Edward I "Hammer of the Scots" died in 1307, while on campaign against the Scots. Edward's son married Phillip's daughter and together they were dead set on breaking the Scots-Flemish (Templar) alliance. No doubt it was for something more than just the wool trade. Both had raided the London and Paris Temples to fund their wars and both owed the Templars money. After the Templars had lost Acre under the Flemish grand-master Guillaume de Beaujeu, they had lost their raison d'être and in Cyprus and France at least were simple administrators. Perhaps Scotland was where the real action was?

- Through Alexander III’s daughter (Margaret of Scotland) the knowledge of the "grail" possibly passes to the King of Norway, who later marries another Scots bride, the sister of Robert de Brus.

- de Brus was also William Marshall’s (the “greatest knight”) 2nd great-grandson, via Marshall’s daughter who married Gilbert de Clare, 5th Earl Gloucester, and signatory to Magna Carta. In fact, although Marshall wasn't himself a Templar, only taking vows on his deathbed, most Magna Carta signatories had Templar connections, such as Robert FitzWalter who donated land to the Templar Cressing estate, from where Magna Carta was planned. de Clare’s grandson, the 7th Earl Gloucester, married Alice de Lusignan. The de Lusignan’s were closely associated with the English king, but also the Templars of Cyprus, ever since Richard "the Lionheart" had sold the island to them. Their daughter was Johanna de Clare, who married the Earl of Fife. Her daughter was Isabella MacDuff who crowned Robert de Brus as king.

- de Clare also married Joan of Acre, rebellious daughter to Edward I. Joan later married Ralph de Monthermer, who famously warned de Brus (by sending him a pair of spurs) that Edward wanted to capture him at Carlisle. Ralph was later granted the earldom of Atholl by Edward I. In probably the first known case of insider trading Ralph sold the land to an English knight, just before de Brus and the Templars arrived late in 1307 to confiscate it, and give it back to Ralph.

Back to the Appin of Dull...... The Tironensians had inherited most of the Culdees' properties as the one monastic order that most sensitively blended Celtic and Catholic beliefs. Rosslyn Chapel is a good example of that. The Abbey of Dull was a great centre of learning in its time, and the nearby Weem church contains an interesting gravestone from that time. Supposedly of a local family, another interpretation could be that of two kings, five fellowcrafts, three ruffians, a sprig of acacia and a grave. The nearby Atholl Highlanders at Blair Atholl can also trace their history to a band of brave "men of Murray" who arrived in the area over 700 years ago, vowing to defend the place.

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As regards the St. Clairs and the Templars, I've already given the reasons why the early St. Clairs would have testified against them in 1312. Brus and the Templars concentrated on the highlands and Gaelic west of Scotland first, while St. Clair lands at Rosslyn were right in the middle of English control. Assuming Brus met some Templar knights on Iona (Icolmkill) during his escape from the English going into the winter of 1306, then it does help explain how he managed to source dozens of galleys, hundreds of men and weapons, and then went on to wipe out the English at every battle once he landed back on the mainland in 1307. Of course his close friend MacDonald, Lord of the Isles, was able to supply some men from his wife's Irish dowry, but not hundreds. Having completed the battles of Turnberry, Glen Trool and Loudon, de Brus rested at the Stewart's Dundonald Castle, and then sat "afterwards at Kilwinning, where the King of Scotland first sat as Grand Master". At least according to the Royal Order of Scotland ritual.

Many year's later, once the Templars had integrated with the Tironensian builders and/or Black Knights, they would choose 24th June, St. John's day, to fight the Battle of Bannockburn. Before the start of Bannockburn, Edward II reportedly said in surprise, “Look, they pray for mercy!" "For mercy, yes," one of his attendants replied, "but from God, not you. These men will conquer or die." Which words might remind you of the famous line uttered by the 8th Templar Grand Master, Odo de Saint-Amand, when refusing his freedom from Saladin's imprisonment, "A Templar has to either conquer or die". Or perhaps the phrase "Vincere aut Mori" in the Rose Croix 11th degree. Or the motto of the MacDougall clan "Buaidh no Bas" with the image of a knight holding his prayer cross, the Templar's cross crosslet fitchee, which he would plant before battle while saying his prayers. The MacDougall heiress married into the Appin Stewart clan, from whom every early noble grand master of Scots, Antient and Premier lodge freemasonry is descended.

Essentially, I believe the Tironensian Order and the Templars were very closely associated in the protection of certain secrets, either from Alfonso "the Battler", or from what they discovered below the Temple Mount. The patron of the Tironensian order was Rotrou II, cousin to Alfonso "the Battler", King of Aragon, and served as his governor in Aragon for a time. Alfonso split his possessions in his will, with the Templars receiving many of the spoils as thanks for their assistance with the Reconquista. However, his chalice stayed with the kings of Aragon and now many believe it's the chalice from the last supper, kept at Valencia Cathedral. The 2nd grand master of the templars administered Alfonso's will and the 3rd grand master was Louis VII, King of France's right-hand man during the 2nd crusade. Maybe they got his precious Garnet of Jaca, since Wolfram's tale tells us the grail is a garnet hyacinth, a "lapsit exsillis", or the stone that fell from heaven.

I guess we will never know, but it is interesting to examine all the historical threads. With an open mind, if at all possible.
 
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