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Fraternal Relations

Brother JC

Moderating Staff
Staff Member
Re: Fraternal Relations Committee (Grand Lodge of

I'm a little confused (not unusual) on your cipher issue, Daniel. I come to your Lodge, enjoy the Fellowship and bill-paying discussions, hopefully hear a presentation on an invigorating subject... how does the fact that my GL issues ciphers make that experience problematic for either the Lodge, or the visitor? And how does it translate to a problem in making visitation legal?
 

crono782

Premium Member
I dunno, maybe it has no bearing whatsoever. It's easy to forget that there is currently plenty of examples of r+v states that use cipher. I seem to recall at one point I had a better answer to that question, but somehow it now escapes me.

EDIT: I think it was along the lines of the current hot topic of cipher use in tx. Considering that it's a bit of a polarizing issue by itself, the very fact if tx PHA uses them might sway a vote. Some might say this doesn't make sense as we allow visitation w/ other jurisdictions that do, but this is a special context.

I can answer that it has no real bearing on making visitation legal or not, but that it could be a potential issue for the "swing votes".

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KyPastMaster

Registered User
Re: Fraternal Relations Committee (Grand Lodge of

"When at practice , practice however when it's real it's real , to all brothers get ready and stay ready you won't have time to go to your room'


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I may be a little dense this morning , a little slow due to the sleeping pill I took last has me all fuzzy headed so forgive me for asking but what are you trying to say here ?

Are you saying conduct your own business as you see fit and if it feels right , just keep on doing what you are doing ?
 
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dfreybur

Premium Member
Re: Fraternal Relations Committee (Grand Lodge of

I dunno, maybe it has no bearing whatsoever. It's easy to forget that there is currently plenty of examples of r+v states that use cipher. I seem to recall at one point I had a better answer to that question, but somehow it now escapes me.

The states I know are all either cipher or written out with a few important words removed. I would be interested to know if any remain that are still mouth to ear (Texas already handled in previous posts). I know that the cipher was popular before it was authorized - In California it was authorized in the 1980s and I have a collection of old ones from before that era.

EDIT: I think it was along the lines of the current hot topic of cipher use in tx. Considering that it's a bit of a polarizing issue by itself, the very fact if tx PHA uses them might sway a vote. Some might say this doesn't make sense as we allow visitation w/ other jurisdictions that do, but this is a special context.

I can answer that it has no real bearing on making visitation legal or not, but that it could be a potential issue for the "swing votes".

Part of why I stress educating the truth on the topic. There are those who assert that Texas is a mouth to ear state. As there is an authorized cipher it's an objectively incorrect assertion. If it gets included as a smoke screen to resist agreeing to visitation that smoke screen does need to be cleared away well before the question comes to a vote on the GL floor.

Object to PHA visitation because they have a ritual written out with the important words removed? UGLE has that as well. Who wants to pull visitation for UGLE members? Right, there you go. But as you point out the topic could be used quietly without being discussed. It's why discussion like this needs to happen to push education on the topic.
 

crono782

Premium Member
Re: Fraternal Relations Committee (Grand Lodge of

True. Corrected if I'm wrong, but the "blue book" cipher is not authorized in any official sense so much as it is no longer a masonic offense to possess it.


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BroBook

Premium Member
Re: Fraternal Relations Committee (Grand Lodge of

I may be a little dense this morning , a little slow due to the sleeping pill I took last has me all fuzzy headed so forgive me for asking but what are you trying to say here ?

Are you saying conduct your own business as you see fit and if it feels right , just keep on doing what you are doing ?

No sir my brother I am saying learn the ritual
Verbatim I really don't think false brothers do


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KyPastMaster

Registered User
Re: Fraternal Relations Committee (Grand Lodge of

No sir my brother I am saying learn the ritual
Verbatim I really don't think false brothers do


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I know MANY recognized Masons that DO NOT learn the ritual verbatim . Or at least the ones I know , those of us who can confer degrees by memory are growing in short supply around here .

ETA : I know a brother who is one darn good Mason , but due to a motorcycle accident he received a concussion and his memory is shot . are we to say he is not a true Mason and that this make him a false Mason because he can not answer some questions ? Being able to regurgitate ritual verbatim does not make a man a true Mason . Sorry , I am just trying to wrap my mind around this, that because a man can or can not commit to memory ritual is indicative of them being a true/false Mason .
 
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BroBook

Premium Member
Re: Fraternal Relations Committee (Grand Lodge of

I know most recognized Masons that DO NOT learn the ritual verbatim . Or at least the ones I know , this of us who can confer degrees by memory are growing in short supply around here .

Agreed let me rephrase we should know it well enough to be able to make lalolum be their selves!


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BroBook

Premium Member
Re: Fraternal Relations Committee (Grand Lodge of

I know most recognized Masons that DO NOT learn the ritual verbatim . Or at least the ones I know , those of us who can confer degrees by memory are growing in short supply around here .

ETA : I know a brother who is one darn good Mason , but due to a motorcycle accident he received a concussion and his memory is shot . are we to say he is not a true Mason and that this make him a false Mason because he can not answer some questions ? Being able to regurgitate ritual verbatim does not make a man a true Mason . Sorry , I am just trying to wrap my mind around this, that because a man can or can not commit to memory ritual is indicative of them being a false Mason .

No I said a false mason would not take the time to examine closely enough to be able to spot a man with no light displayed glowing in a crowd


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KyPastMaster

Registered User
Re: Fraternal Relations Committee (Grand Lodge of

No I said a false mason would not take the time to examine closely enough to be able to spot a man with no light displayed glowing in a crowd


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Again , I am stumped as to what you are getting at so maybe I am dense . If by "light" (sorry but that terminology of Masonic trinkets throws me off) you mean some Masonic emblems , I do do not pay attention to other Masons in a crowd . As a Matter of fact , I personally do not care if there are other Masons (or false Masons) in a crowd as we are a dime a dozen here in area . Care expand on your statement ?


I mean no respect , just looking for clarity .
 

dfreybur

Premium Member
Re: Fraternal Relations Committee (Grand Lodge of

I know MANY recognized Masons that DO NOT learn the ritual verbatim . Or at least the ones I know , those of us who can confer degrees by memory are growing in short supply around here .

There need to be enough to form a degree team at least in the district. Every lodge should have the goal of their line being able to pull off degrees and/or being regulars on the degree team. I've been to degrees where several of the brothers read from their book. Those degrees blew. Of course the problem is not the book. Books don't fail to practice and read themselves. The problem is not spending enough time practicing. Lack of social events after practice also cuts into the camaraderie of the line.

ETA : I know a brother who is one darn good Mason , but due to a motorcycle accident he received a concussion and his memory is shot . are we to say he is not a true Mason and that this make him a false Mason because he can not answer some questions ? Being able to regurgitate ritual verbatim does not make a man a true Mason . Sorry , I am just trying to wrap my mind around this, that because a man can or can not commit to memory ritual is indicative of them being a true/false Mason .

On the one hand - We handle disabilities. It's our modern way. Anyone without a brain defect can memorize their proficiency. It's part of the deal of a proficiency to break through any internal barrier of denial. But the brother in your example is not the first I've heard about with this type of disability.

On the other hand - There was a time when we didn't take those with disabilities so it would have been a bar to entry. Some of our eldest members remember that era or forget that we are no longer in that era.
 

BroBook

Premium Member
Re: Fraternal Relations Committee (Grand Lodge of

Again , I am stumped as to what you are getting at so maybe I am dense . If by "light" (sorry but that terminology of Masonic trinkets throws me off) you mean some Masonic emblems , I do do not pay attention to other Masons in a crowd . As a Matter of fact , I personally do not care if there are other Masons (or false Masons) in a crowd as we are a dime a dozen here in area . Care expand on your statement ?


I mean no respect , just looking for clarity .

Simply put a person headed east would be easy to spot by how he walks and talks whether he is being watched or not , I never was one to care who was or was not a mason neither I was looking for truth and this science has helped me



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dfreybur

Premium Member
Re: Fraternal Relations Committee (Grand Lodge of

I know MANY recognized Masons that DO NOT learn the ritual verbatim . Or at least the ones I know , those of us who can confer degrees by memory are growing in short supply around here .

I suggest this has ALWAYS been true. The only difference is the long decline in Masonic population has made it more visible. When a lodge has 500+ members it only takes a few to get certified in the ritual. When a lodge has 50+ members it still takes that same few to get certified in the ritual. The numbers become more apparent because of the declining population. That's my take. And since the number of candidates has been going up for the last decade I'm not as worried about it as others. A number of lodges will die before the reversal completes, but a number of new lodges will be chartered as well.

All brothers do what proficiencies are required. How many move beyond that? Brothers who go through the line and/or join the degree team. I know a fair number of brothers who didn't have time to go through the line who did join the degree team and have been wonderful at it. That's something I did not expect until I saw it happen. At first I thought that going through the line was the primary way brothers learn ritual as that's the way I did it my first two versions of the ritual.
 

relapse98

Registered User
Re: Fraternal Relations Committee (Grand Lodge of

Some would see a dues card for PHO (or some other ) and take it for granted that it was PHA . If we were to suddenly have visitation , many would be confused by all this .

I think this is something we could work through, if visitation was allowed. Just take a simple note to the lodges to remind them what to look for and a reminder to use the List of Regular Lodges Masonic. I just don't really see how this would be any different than what we currently have. We may have more visitors, but if you are already doing your job, then you shouldn't have a problem.

Now if you aren't doing your job, well then we have a different problem.
 

relapse98

Registered User
Re: Fraternal Relations Committee (Grand Lodge of

The states I know are all either cipher or written out with a few important words removed. I would be interested to know if any remain that are still mouth to ear (Texas already handled in previous posts).

The Texas one still has a few very significant parts not even in cipher.
 

KyPastMaster

Registered User
Re: Fraternal Relations Committee (Grand Lodge of

I think this is something we could work through, if visitation was allowed. Just take a simple note to the lodges to remind them what to look for and a reminder to use the List of Regular Lodges Masonic. I just don't really see how this would be any different than what we currently have. We may have more visitors, but if you are already doing your job, then you shouldn't have a problem.

Now if you aren't doing your job, well then we have a different problem.

We do not have lists/books/ledgers of recognized lodges that we can compare dues card too in our lodges so this method would be of no use to us . It is up to the SW and Tyler to know who is recognized and who is not , well them and the three man committee who is called upon to try visitors . And As I stated , most are not up to speed on PHA , PHO and/or any other clandestine lodge .
 
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dfreybur

Premium Member
Re: Fraternal Relations Committee (Grand Lodge of

We do not have lists/books/ledgers of recognized lodges that we can compare dues card too in our lodges so this method would be of no use to us .

Almost every lodge I've visited as had one, though often their copy was several years old. Because of a consolidation and a name change my Illinois lodge appears as Arlington Heights 1162, Monitor Lounsbury 522 or Barrington 522 depending on the year the copy was printed.

http://pantagraphprinting.com/ESW/Files/2012_LoL_Sample_Pages.pdf

You don't have books like that? I recommend them.
 

Brother JC

Moderating Staff
Staff Member
Re: Fraternal Relations Committee (Grand Lodge of

They are updated annually, and available to your Lodge Secretary. Ours keeps the latest one within reach of his desk and puts past issues in the library.
 

Brother JC

Moderating Staff
Staff Member
Re: Fraternal Relations Committee (Grand Lodge of

All eyes to the future, gentlemen. When I come to visit Texas, I want to Visit with my Brethren, and I would be greatly saddened to be told, "we don't do that here."
 

Cblack

Registered User
Re: Fraternal Relations Committee (Grand Lodge of

At Mid Winter Session. .the resolution to amend the compact agreement with the GLoTX passed without opposition...it has been turned over to the committee on fraternal relations

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