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Is anglo-freemasonry on the endangered list?

Michael Hatley

Premium Member
I took it to mean English style Freemasonry, as in recognized by UGLE - which would include PH. As opposed to, for example, the French GL style Masonry and others, which are often co-ed, not recognized by the UGLE and to most of us, clandestine.
 

Bro. Vincent

Registered User
I was just curious. Because I know I get alot if push back when i speak of the Moors and the ancient African roots of what Western Civilization calls Freemasonry.


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JJones

Moderator
I was just curious. Because I know I get alot if push back when i speak of the Moors and the ancient African roots of what Western Civilization calls Freemasonry.

I haven't heard about any relationship to the Moors. Also are you speaking about ancient Egypt?
 

jwhoff

Premium Member
My question is; "What does one do about a segregated Lodge?" By "segregated", I mean racially. I have seen a few of them that still look at the external man before seeing the internal qualifications. What do we do about that? A man is a man, is he not? No matter what his skin tone may be, be it tan, brown, green, black, yellow,etc?


Your eyesight must be poor brother. I see PLENTY of lodges still looking at the external man before seeing the internal qualificiations. That goes for skin tone, net worth, and a mirid of other qualities. But, unfortunately, we are dealing with people subject to all the petty tastes people are so well known for.

Then again, maybe your eyesight is tanted by our desires that masonry should aspire to a higher level. Oh that it were.

God bless.
 

dfreybur

Premium Member
My question is; "What does one do about a segregated Lodge?" By "segregated", I mean racially. I have seen a few of them that still look at the external man before seeing the internal qualifications. What do we do about that?

I favor what happens in the work world - Ostracism and marginalization. Shunning. Be tolerant of tolerance, intolerant of intolerance. In time those who practice it will age out and die. Most in the new generation has never seen such practices in their lives. Live that all in the new generation only see such topics in history books.
 

Roy Vance

Certified
Premium Member
Your eyesight must be poor brother. I see PLENTY of lodges still looking at the external man before seeing the internal qualificiations. That goes for skin tone, net worth, and a mirid of other qualities. But, unfortunately, we are dealing with people subject to all the petty tastes people are so well known for.

Then again, maybe your eyesight is tanted by our desires that masonry should aspire to a higher level. Oh that it were.

God bless.

It may be that my sight is slightly tainted by wanting to aspire to that higher level.
 

Roy Vance

Certified
Premium Member
I favor what happens in the work world - Ostracism and marginalization. Shunning. Be tolerant of tolerance, intolerant of intolerance. In time those who practice it will age out and die. Most in the new generation has never seen such practices in their lives. Live that all in the new generation only see such topics in history books.

I can understand that point of view, but, there is a small problem for me there. Some of those with that outlook are much younger than I am and will out live me. So, there, my Brother, is my dilema. I do not like "racism" or any kind of bigotry, and those who practice it make me angry and want to spit bullets, but, with my being a relatively "young" Mason, two years next month, I just mostly keep to myself about it and live my personal life like I feel I need to.
 

widows son

Premium Member
"I was just curious. Because I know I get alot if push back when i speak of the Moors and the ancient African roots of what Western Civilization calls Freemasonry."

-the ancient Egyptians were centuries apart from the Moors. The Moors invades Spain.
 

Bro. Vincent

Registered User
The moors trace alot of their lineage back to that part of the world. In Morocco and northern Africa. I understand they were active during different time frames... My point is they were a vital link between ancient freemasonry (african not greek)and modern western civilization's version(European) of freemasonry.

The moors have a story that is so unique when it comes to masonry and its rarely told...they ruled Southern Europe for 700 years and touch every part of the continent. They ushered in the renaissance period.

There is a reason in my eyes why those Irish soldiers were willing to initiate Prince Hall. When none of the American lodges would...


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dfreybur

Premium Member
And so many of the powerhouse lodges (relatively speaking) ring the outskirts of urban areas rather than within them.

A new generation is moving back towards the center of cities. Gentrification, urban renewal. Give it a few brief decades and urban lodges with be thriving again.
 

dfreybur

Premium Member
The moors have a story that is so unique when it comes to masonry and its rarely told...they ruled Southern Europe for 700 years and touch every part of the continent.

The Moors were a part of the Caliphate. Encounters between the Knights Templar and the Caliphate have a part in why many of us like to claim the KT as our spiritual ancestors and some try to claim direct lineage.

They ushered in the renaissance period.

The Renaissance period in Europe happened after and arguably because they were ejected. It was a different Renaissance. Any mathematician knows the words algebra and algorithm come from the Caliphate and thus from the Moors. The European one came after the Moors were ejected. Architecture, though ... Look at Moorish then at Romanesque then at Gothic architectures. The influence is striking.

There is a reason in my eyes why those Irish soldiers were willing to initiate Prince Hall. When none of the American lodges would...

Because racism was an American phenomenon and they had not been absorbed into the local culture so they had not gotten infected by it.
 

widows son

Premium Member
"The moors trace alot of their lineage back to that part of the world. In Morocco and northern Africa. I understand they were active during different time frames... My point is they were a vital link between ancient freemasonry (african not greek)and modern western civilization's version(European) of freemasonry. "

- Operative/speculative Freemasonry didn't exist outside of Europe for a long time. During the Enlightenment, the rediscovery of ancient cultures helped influence the people who would later influence Masonry. I believe that The Mysteries, specifically the initiatory and degree or grade system was used as a model by those who had a hand in the formation of the rituals. That doesn't mean that Freemasonry is a direct descendant of these
Mystery institutions, rather it was recognized that it proved successful to the specific nature of the craft. That, with other concepts such as grips that stonemasons used to recognize each other, also proved successful. Because Freemasonry as we know it was spawned during the Enlightenment, Many other pervading ideas were incorporated into it.

Prior to the stonemasons we knew the Romans were the ones who knew the building and mathematical techniques used to erects massive structures.
 

Bro. Vincent

Registered User
Ok you have to do some studying outside of mainstream history tellers. some of the changes to modern freemasonry are changed simply to meet the specific cultures of that time period but the concepts predate the Romans and Greeks by thousands of years. As a matter of fact this is what some Greek scholars scribed themselves, that they had studied at feet of the people of khemit, which does not mean the black soil it means the land of the blacks.

You are correct the great builders of "western civilization"started with the Greeks then the Romans, but Egyptians predate them and they wrote they were the descendants of the Nubian empires south of Egypt in the northern portion of the Nile Valley down south. I am afraid my brother this history is hidden from the world and locked in the Vatican and the louve in Paris and the aristocracy of the world.

People would like you to believe this is fantasy but there's a reason the people of the world are never taught african history. The mainstream history tellers have gone to great lengths to suppress this information and would have us all believe that humanity and civilization started in Europe. When in fact it is a mere child to the high cultures that predate them by thousands of years. Complete with degree work, rituals and the whole 9.

This is not to argue with you my brother. And make no mistake you are my masonic brother. But I must admit it is frustrating that we are always taught European history but I would be very surprised if you could tell me anything about the ancient people's of Africa. I'm sure you would have a hard time coming up with 5 historical events pre 17 century.







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widows son

Premium Member
Bro. Vincent I would like to continue this convo in a private msg or on a separate thread. I don't want to hijack this thread.
 

JJones

Moderator
I don't know anything about the Moors but what you're saying is reminding me a lot of "The Hiram Key", I don't know if you've read it or not.

I'm not sure how I feel about all of it myself. There's no doubt that our civilization is heavily influenced from Greece/Rome...who likely were inspired by Egypt, who were in turn inspired by Sumaria...at least not in my mind...I'm just not sure at which point we can find the roots of our fraternity.
 

Bro_Vick

Moderator
Premium Member
"The only two questions left to be answered are first, will Anglo-Freemasonry save itself from extinction?"

Are we talking about "mainstream" Freemasonry?

All English speaking countries, UK, Canada, Ireland, US. In Latin America, France and other parts of Europe Freemasonry is actually growing, not shrinking. That is discussed in the paper that Bro Buta mentioned above.

S&F,
-Bro Vick
 

Bro_Vick

Moderator
Premium Member
Curious. What is "Anglo" Freemasonry? I assume that to mean white. Please correct me of I'm wrong.


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No, it means countries that are predominatly settled by the UK, so the US, Canada, Australia, etc are currently going through the decline. While countries in Latin America, France, and other jurisdictions in Europe have been seeing a steady increase.

S&F,
-Bro Vick
 
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