Conspiracy theories

[JJones]

Just a friendly reminder that most of us are brothers here and all of us are gentlemen. Let's act accordingly and avoid taking this thread down a slippery slope.

 

[MarkR]

So you are saying that pagans put it on the dollar bill?

You are just as bad as the CTs only at the other end of the spectrum where you deny it all and devoid the fraternity of all substance and essence.

I have here right in front of my eyes books written by some of the most revered and prominent masonic writers that go into deep detail on the origin, history and meaning of the symbols found also on the great seal.

Instead of regurgitating things you have heard and spread discordant passions by simply negating my knowledge, research and understanding...I would suggest for some additional research on your part.

If you would like to take this offline, I can scan pages upon pages from many old books on this subject, PDF and email them to you.


My Freemasonry

I have a quite adequate Masonic library of my own, thank you very much. I guess I'll remain as bad as conspiracy theorists because I accept modern Masonic researchers like S. Brent Morris as being at least the equal of the classical writers, who often accepted myths as facts. I do enjoy reading the old stuff, but much of their work has been absolutely proven wrong.

 

[BryanMaloney]

Espousing Federal Reserve conspiracy theories while denying anti-Masonic conspiracy theories is just cherry-picking.

 

[JJones]

So if a man were to believe one CT then he should believe them all?

 

[Brother JC]

Brother Rebis; as Brother Mark R pointed out, just because Mackey wrote it, doesn't 't make it fact.

I don't think anyone is trying to take the depth and meaning away from our symbolism. But when people start claiming that every eye, every triangle, every pillar ever placed anywhere (cue History Channel crescendo music) is part of Masonry or a Masonic plot, it gets really old. Our symbols mean specific things to us, and they are filled with depth and beauty. But they have meant other things to other peoples through time, and we forget that at our peril.

 

[dfreybur]

Espousing Federal Reserve conspiracy theories while denying anti-Masonic conspiracy theories is just cherry-picking.

There are people who say McDonalds is a conspiracy to make us all fat with their high carb high fat high salt junk food super sized. In reality all it takes is market forces and a profit motive. Restaurants offer an assortment of foods. They constantly evolve their menus. They increase the variety of products that sell well and are profitable. They remove the products that don't sell well or that show a loss. As humans instinctively crave high carb high fat high salt foods that's what McDonalds sells. As our mobile society values fast McDonalds sell fast products aka junk food. The market escalation of portion sizes is visible in many business from pickup trucks to sodas.

But where's the market force and profit motive of being a Mason? It definitely costs me money to be a Mason. I could be an Elk for more money I guess but the difference in expenditure isn't why I'm a Mason not an Elk.

As to the Federal Reserve it's hard to tell what's the dog wagging the tale and what's the tale wagging the dog. Word substitution tale/tail deliberate ... I don't see the families owning the Fed not benefiting themselves by playing a long game. But I also see them benefiting themselves by ensuring the stability of civilization to the best of their abilities. Self serving can be serving and vice versa in the long run.

 

[BryanMaloney]

So if a man were to believe one CT then he should believe them all?

If a man chooses to be credulous and suspend reason, he might as well be liberal about it. Loony is loony. It is one thing to stick to reason and verifiable evidence. It would be quite another to go Full Alex Jones on a topic, no matter what that topic might be, and those who claim the "Fed" is intentionally up to no good (as opposed to just being a very bad idea that keeps doing stupid things) have gone Full Alex Jones.

 

[BryanMaloney]

There are people who say McDonalds is a conspiracy to make us all fat with their high carb high fat high salt junk food super sized. In reality all it takes is market forces and a profit motive. Restaurants offer an assortment of foods. They constantly evolve their menus. They increase the variety of products that sell well and are profitable. They remove the products that don't sell well or that show a loss. As humans instinctively crave high carb high fat high salt foods that's what McDonalds sells. As our mobile society values fast McDonalds sell fast products aka junk food. The market escalation of portion sizes is visible in many business from pickup trucks to sodas.

But where's the market force and profit motive of being a Mason? It definitely costs me money to be a Mason.

What does that supposed contrast mean, at all? Are you saying that the McDonald's conspiracy theory is true or that people simply refuse to accept rational and prosaic explanations and insist upon conspiratorial delusions to "explain" McDonald's, instead?

If one is willing to swallow the anti-Fed conspiracy twaddle, why not the anti-McDonald's twaddle and the anti-Masonic twaddle? Is it really just a matter of choosing to believe the conspiracy theories that already agree with ones own prejudices?

One would not have to search hard to find a conspiracy-theory connection between the NSA shenanigans and Freemasonry. It's even easier to find people who claim that the Freemasons are secretly running the Fed.

 

[dfreybur]

What does that supposed contrast mean, at all? Are you saying that the McDonald's conspiracy theory is true or that people simply refuse to accept rational and prosaic explanations and insist upon conspiratorial delusions to "explain" McDonald's, instead?

Choosing a McDonald's conspiracy theory is a decision to ignore market forces. It's irrational.

Choosing an Anti-Mason conspiracy theory is ignoring eminent neighborhood Grandpas who are involved in multiple of our orders who would have rejected Masonry had any of the conspiracy theorists claims has turned out to be true. It's irrational.

Different example, different rationale, but the method is the same.

 

[Bro. Michael]

When a man knows beyond any doubt and is himself living evidence that a conspiracy theory is false then he cannot lend it any leniency. As a Mason, I do not lend any credulity to conspiracy theories about masonry. If these theorists are correct then it begs the question, how were Ben Franklin, George Washington, General Douglas MacArthur, Mark Twain, and other such brilliant minds stretching across most of recorded history deceived while the average person has supposedly found "the truth?" Furthermore, is it not suspicious that those who make such claims against Masonry tend to come from religious or political occupations (which are both known and proven to (for the most part) desire power and wealth (the same things of which they accuse Masons) above all else). This means that most of these theorists have a motive for wanting to defame any organization that would deny them that power and wealth.

Examples:

The Church
-Salem Witch Trials (many women were killed with no proof that they were witches (and even if they were it was church sanctioned killing) simply because they were independent, unpopular, or ugly)

Spanish Inquisition (mass killings of anyone who disagreed with the church as well as anyone who agreed with the church but for any reason stepped out of line)

Governments
-The Nazi Regime (Hitler did not only order the murder of Jews. Masons were also hunted down. And Christians. And anyone else who did not want to be ruled by Hitler and submit to his beliefs)

-Benito Mussolini (Masonry was banned for members of the fascist regime and those who chose to leave the regime rather than masonry were arrested

-Bela Kun (Following his proclamation of the "Dictatorship of the Proletariat" military raids took place on masonic lodges and Masonry was outlawed specifically for supporting capitalism and thus opposing his political position)

I should say that while that is not all the evidence there is in support of Masonry and against its enemies, it is still sufficient to cast doubt on such theories as well as to encourage further study into what Masonry is really about.

As a final point, I would clarify that if we were really such a secret organization, then it is unlikely we would be foolish enough to publish not only the locations of our lodges but also when they meet.

 

[Bro. Michael]

What does that supposed contrast mean, at all? Are you saying that the McDonald's conspiracy theory is true or that people simply refuse to accept rational and prosaic explanations and insist upon conspiratorial delusions to "explain" McDonald's, instead?

If one is willing to swallow the anti-Fed conspiracy twaddle, why not the anti-McDonald's twaddle and the anti-Masonic twaddle? Is it really just a matter of choosing to believe the conspiracy theories that already agree with ones own prejudices?

One would not have to search hard to find a conspiracy-theory connection between the NSA shenanigans and Freemasonry. It's even easier to find people who claim that the Freemasons are secretly running the Fed.

While I can see your point, it seems flawed. The issue is not a matter of choosing that which already agrees with one's prejudices. It is a matter of evidence. There is a great deal of evidence that nearly any government is wronging the people it is supposed to serve. There is, however, little besides hearsay about Masonic conspiracy. Sure there are plenty of people who SAY they know, but what they say, may not be true. Only a Mason truly knows what goes on inside the fraternity, and the people who are helped by all that we do are our evidence. I can't say the same for conspiracy theorists or for any government

 

[BryanMaloney]

While I can see your point, it seems flawed. The issue is not a matter of choosing that which already agrees with one's prejudices. It is a matter of evidence. There is a great deal of evidence that nearly any government is wronging the people it is supposed to serve. There is, however, little besides hearsay about Masonic conspiracy. Sure there are plenty of people who SAY they know, but what they say, may not be true. Only a Mason truly knows what goes on inside the fraternity, and the people who are helped by all that we do are our evidence. I can't say the same for conspiracy theorists or for any government

Anti-Fed conspiracy theories usually put the Freemasons behind it in some way or another. Indeed, all of these lunatic theories end up blaming the Freemasons in some way. In for a penny, in for a pound.

 

[jwhoff]

Less than that in my case. Being a conspiracy theorist is the express lane to insanity as far as I'm concerned.

Agreed! And the speed exhibited at those lanes is ... well, unbelievable.

 

[Bro. Michael]

Anti-Fed conspiracy theories usually put the Freemasons behind it in some way or another. Indeed, all of these lunatic theories end up blaming the Freemasons in some way. In for a penny, in for a pound.

I suppose we shouldn't be surprised. It has always been standard policy, it would seem, for the uneducated to "bite the hand that feeds them."

 

[Browncoat]

I heard the gunman on the grassy knoll was a Freemason. No wait, I read it in a book once.

Sent From My Freemasonry Mobile App

 

[Brother JC]

I'm reading "Foucault's Pendulum" and I swear people must use it as a basis for some of their theories.

 

[MarkR]

The Church
-Salem Witch Trials (many women were killed with no proof that they were witches (and even if they were it was church sanctioned killing) simply because they were independent, unpopular, or ugly)

There is some credence being given to a theory that the grain stores of Salem became contaminated with ergot fungus, which is the source of LSD. It may have been mass ergot poisoning with the accompanying hallucinations that started the hysteria.

 

[Bro. Michael]

There is some credence being given to a theory that the grain stores of Salem became contaminated with ergot fungus, which is the source of LSD. It may have been mass ergot poisoning with the accompanying hallucinations that started the hysteria.

Very interesting, I was unaware of any such theory. Thank you. For the sake of fairness, that particular instance may not have been a valid support for my point given that. Still, it would seem the situations involving that kind of behavior from religious or political organizations are far more numerous, and much easier to prove than any Masonic conspiracy, a point which seems to still be pretty clear.

Thank you again, Brother. I will have to do some further research into the Salem Witch Trials.

 

[MarkR]

http://people.ucls.uchicago.edu/~snekros/Salem Journal/Aftermath/AnnaK.html

In all fairness, there are also historians who dismiss the theory.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app

 

[nfasson]

I'm a firm believer in the mundane answer usually being the right one.

Wild-eyed tales of lizard men and world domination will always be more entertaining than the boring truth.

Crackpots spend so much time and energy spinning these tall tales that they can't accept the possibility that there might be a more plausible answer.