Getting back into the craft....the RIGHT way!

[MRichard]

I didn't say anything about havin to haze to teach a lesson. I don't feel that I was ever hazed and I will never let anybody tell me different because it wasn't hazing. If anything they might have tested our fortitude? Which there is nothing wrong with that. Nothing should be given it should be earned. Especially within Masonry.

What's the point then? You kinda implied it as well.

 

[Alfred Taylor]

what do you consider hazing??


Did you receive wages as an EA?

 

[MRichard]

what do you consider hazing??


Did you receive wages as an EA?

There are several forms of hazing. Some mental, some physical. I will let my grand lodge determine what is or isn't hazing and furthermore the steps necessary for advancement.

 

[Alfred Taylor]

I didn't ask what was required of you to advance in Masonry or what your grand lodge determines as hazing.

I simply asked a fellow brother what his opinion was. It's not a right or wrong answer most brothers in the states have never heard what a Masonic apple is.

A key part of our early lessons derive from the building of KST do they not? So why are some parts of the teaching ritualistic and the other parts considered "hazing"?

Can you/are you willing to answer that question??

Do you even know SPECIFICALLY why your GL has the specific rules in place that it does about hazing???

 

[MRichard]

I didn't ask what was required of you to advance in Masonry or what your grand lodge determines as hazing.

I simply asked a fellow brother what his opinion was. It's not a right or wrong answer most brothers in the states have never heard what a Masonic apple is.

A key part of our early lessons derive from the building of KST do they not? So why are some parts of the teaching ritualistic and the other parts considered "hazing"?

Can you/are you willing to answer that question??

Do you even know SPECIFICALLY why your GL has the specific rules in place that it does about hazing???

As you were apparently raised in a military lodge, our experiences would obviously be different. Frankly, I don't care to debate what is or isn't hazing. We can agree to disagree and move on.

 

[Alfred Taylor]

so what was your point in responding to anything that I said?

i don't care about your so called "different experience". I legitimately just wanted to know how the different jurisdictions label and deal with hazing.

I would hate to send a young brother your way for instruction and guidance

 

[MRichard]

so what was your point in responding to anything that I said?

i don't care about your so called "different experience". I legitimately just wanted to know how the different jurisdictions label and deal with hazing.

I would hate to send a young brother your way for instruction and guidance

Each grand lodge is different. That much should be obvious. It's not a bad thing. The fact that we would have different experiences in different grand lodges is probably true of just about every regular and or recognized grand lodge to some extent.

Apparently, you are getting in your feelings. Are you even an active member of a lodge?

 

[Alfred Taylor]

In my feelings? No not at all.

To some extent your right.

But in all honesty I've actually been quite curious about the differences in each grand lodge and why those differences exist. So when I get a chance to speak to a brother from a different grand lodge naturally I ask. Perhaps part of the dialogue would enlighten me and shed more light on something. I'm a firm believer that there's always something that we can learn. Especially when it pertains to our foundation as Masons.

But to answer your question yes I am an active member of a lodge. What does that have to do with anything?

 

[MRichard]

In my feelings? No not at all.

To some extent your right.

But in all honesty I've actually been quite curious about the differences in each grand lodge and why those differences exist. So when I get a chance to speak to a brother from a different grand lodge naturally I ask. Perhaps part of the dialogue would enlighten me and shed more light on something. I'm a firm believer that there's always something that we can learn. Especially when it pertains to our foundation as Masons.

But to answer your question yes I am an active member of a lodge. What does that have to do with anything?

I would suggest visiting the other regular and recognized grand lodge. We do have visitation in Texas. You can't visit if you are not active so it does matter if you are active or not.

I have visited and met some great bothers and I plan on making numerous visits in the future.

 

[MRichard]

To clarify one thing and why I was not willing to get in a big discussion about hazing. You mentioned this, "Or physically went to the quarries. Technically they consider that hazing in the MWPHGLoTX."

You described one practice in the military lodge you were raised in and said your current grand lodge would consider that hazing. I am not a member of the MWPHGLTX, they have already determined what they consider hazing. There are some things I will not discuss online.

Just like when you mentioned something that was a part of the EA initiation. I wouldn't have done that either.

 

[Alfred Taylor]

Yes I know they consider that hazing. However MWPHGLOOK does not. I recently demited and that's what piqued my interest the differences in such a policy like hazing. Among other things that I wouldn't begin to get into on here.

Second I mentioned NOTHING that happened during my initiation. Had you been willing to privately engage in a discussion where I'm sure we both could have learned something from each other you would have known exactly what I was talking about...

 

[Warrior1256]

If you have to haze to teach the lessons of freemasonry, then you are missing the point. It should have no place in freemasonry.

Exactly!

 

[Bloke]

I didn't say anything about havin to haze to teach a lesson. I don't feel that I was ever hazed and I will never let anybody tell me different because it wasn't hazing. If anything they might have tested our fortitude? Which there is nothing wrong with that. Nothing should be given it should be earned. Especially within Masonry.

Just because you can regurgitate some words verbatim do you really understand what it means? Do you really understand why it was done in that particular manner?

Like MRichard says, it's hard to talk about this without getting into specifics.

I think hazing is abuse, particularly physical but also mental. Making someone uncomfortable to make an impression is not hazing but it might be. As Justice Stewart said "I know it when I see it"...

We don't have hazing but we do "make an impression". I'm sure GL's who have this issue define it closely. "Hazing" never enters our rules, because its not an issue.

I have no idea what a Masonic Apple is. Will look it up..

 

[Warrior1256]

I think hazing is abuse, particularly physical but also mental.

Agreed!

 

[Alfred Taylor]

In no way shape or form was I condoning hazing let me be clear.

The reason why the MWPHGLOTX is this way it is is because of some issues they had within the jurisdiction and I will leave it at that.

I stand by what I said we were not hazed. The things that I went through which most of you may feel like hazing. Did more than teach us a lesson with words. It instilled it into us. Because of the way in which I was raised I take pride in being a mason. Masons should have mental fortitude. If you knew anything about the early Grand Masters of the MWPHGLOTX you would definitely understand what I meant by that because they endured many things and many set backs but if it wasn't for their mental fortitude they wouldn't have been able to accomplish the things they did in their lives, community, state, even political parties.

 

[Ripcord22A]

@Bloke i could be wrong but I believe the"Masonic apple" is the paper in which they wrote down the best part of the degree on. If they actually wrote anything down they have to eat it.

I'm curious as to what you @Alfred mean by wages though cause my FC wages could be used to make and then wash down popcorn....

Alsoi notice that you tend to get very defensive when engaged.

Sent from my LG-H918 using My Freemasonry mobile app

 

[Alfred Taylor]

Defensive?

What is there to get defensive about? I mean I guess it can be interpreted like that but unfortunately when appearing online it's common that a lot of things come across different then what we meant for it to.


However no that's not what I was referring to. We had to eat the "Masonic apple" in the quarries. Nothing to do with the initiation ritual at all. We swallowed that and washed it down with fiery brimstone. But anyways it's clear most of you would agree that I was hazed which is fine ultimately I just wanted to open a dialogue in which to see the differences one in our upbringing and 2 as it relates to hazing.


Like teachers who are always looking for new ways to teach I'm looking for new ways to teach as well as learn to improve myself in Masonry.

 

[MRichard]

Second I mentioned NOTHING that happened during my initiation. Had you been willing to privately engage in a discussion where I'm sure we both could have learned something from each other you would have known exactly what I was talking about...

You referred to something that happened in the EA initiation. I will leave it at that. If you don't see a problem with it, that's on you. Maybe you should consider privately engaging on some of these issues. Discretion. Not everything is meant to be posted online but when you do, don't be surprised if someone has an opinion on it.

 

[Warrior1256]

Not everything is meant to be posted online but when you do, don't be surprised if someone has an opinion on it.

True! We all have our opinions.

 

[LK600]

I didn't say anything about havin to haze to teach a lesson. I don't feel that I was ever hazed and I will never let anybody tell me different because it wasn't hazing. If anything they might have tested our fortitude? Which there is nothing wrong with that. Nothing should be given it should be earned. Especially within Masonry.

Just because you can regurgitate some words verbatim do you really understand what it means? Do you really understand why it was done in that particular manner?

By the sound of it, I think using the word "haze" is detracting from your point, and doesn't fit what your talking about anyway. Hazing is illegal in most areas for a reason. Anything that advocates physical or emotional harm, would most likely be an inept process that should be reexamined. But like I said.. I'm fairly certain your not truly talking about hazing.