PHO vs PHA

Discussion in 'Prince Hall Freemasonry' started by TravelLight91, Jun 21, 2013.

  1. bupton52

    bupton52 Moderator Premium Member

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    "Of late years, however, so many of the State Grand Lodges have repudiated the authority of the National Compact, that, at its last communication, held March , 1873, in Philadelphia, a vote to dissolve the body failed by the following insignificant vote, viz: Yeas-States 7: members, 42;proxies, 25; total 67. Nays-States ,8; members,48; proxies, 10; total, 58 Rhode Island not voting. This vote showed the existence of a widespread sentiment among even those colored Masons who adhered to the "Compact" that it was an abnormally, unmasonic body, whose existence should no longer be perpetuated; and the record shows that the Compact owes its life to the diligence of its few friends in securing proxies. Their zeal could not, however, prevent the adoption of resolutions virtually depriving the Compact of all its vaulted control of the State Grand Lodges, depriving the so-called National Grand Master of his executive powers, and putting an end to the voting of proxies; and the sadly demoralized institution closed to meet in Louisville, KY; on the first Monday in May 1874. In several of the States where State Grand Lodges existed which, worked "under the National Compact", subordinate lodges have repudiated the authority of such subordinate Grand Lodges and established Independent Grand Lodges; so that in several states there are two colored Grand Lodges one Independent, the other under the Compact." (MWPHGL of AR CCFC Report April 1873)
     
  2. tjmonty32

    tjmonty32 Registered User

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    Forgetcliffnotes, a direct quote " Many false starements havebeen made and perpetuated on the National Grand Lodge, especiall from 1878 to present. Will Prince Hall (A) Freemasonry acknowledge that intheir official records,their leaders spread and embellished untrue statements concerning the National Grand Lodge"?

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  3. tjmonty32

    tjmonty32 Registered User

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    Another quote "Today the National Grand Lodge has state grand loges in 27 states, ther is no evidence that the National grand Lodge of today is any different than that of the National Grand Lodge of 1847-1878 in terms of its operation."

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  4. bupton52

    bupton52 Moderator Premium Member

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    I hope your sole source for information isn't Roundtree's book!!
     
  5. tjmonty32

    tjmonty32 Registered User

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    I have plenty of sources, but using a PHA writer who calls NGL the mother of PH masonry in America is a striking point. Gotta go work, talk later.

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  6. bupton52

    bupton52 Moderator Premium Member

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    "...Whereas, the M.W. Grand Master, having been present at the session of M.W.N.Grand Lodge, held in the city of Philadelphia, as the representative of this M. W. G. L, and having reported to us that, at that session, the M.W.N.G.L. had removed some of the objections held against that body, and by having amendments to the constitution of the M.W.N.G.L., declared the State Grand Lodges supreme:...."

    This was in 1873. How did they continue to exist and make it to 1878?

     
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  7. bupton52

    bupton52 Moderator Premium Member

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    Just be sure not to put all of your eggs in that basket. Many discussions have been had with Bro. Roundtree about the inaccuracies in that book. I would hope that a researcher would agree that GL proceedings hold a little bit more weight.
     
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  8. tjmonty32

    tjmonty32 Registered User

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    The National Grand Lodge convention in Boston 1875, Triennial convention in Pittsburgh in 1877, Wilminton Delaware 1878. National
    Grand Master Richard Gleaves 1865 to 1877, thats how. Book "History of the National Grand Lodge " by Matthew Brock. And yes also supported by facts and documents in both of Alton Roundtree's books. But the best sources the Princa Hall Grand Lodge of Ohio sending correspondence dates 1877 to both NGL and State Rights calling for national convention in Wilminton Delaware in 1878. Really gotta go, will continue later if you like. I have plenty of sources. Have ablessed day.


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  9. mraymc4

    mraymc4 Registered User

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    Brothers & Non-Brothers,
    Joseph A. Walkes wrote a book named "A Prince Hall Masonic Quiz Book" that gives gives excellent insight on the National Compact or National Grand Lodge. Give it a look & become informed. ImageUploadedByMy Freemasonry HD1380921903.362401.jpg


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  10. bupton52

    bupton52 Moderator Premium Member

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    Very good book. I own a copy.

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  11. tjmonty32

    tjmonty32 Registered User

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    I am quite familiar with Walkes as I also own a copy of his book. So please lize that Joseph A. Walkes Jr. stated in 2001 while attending a conference of Prince Hall Grand Masters, a correction to his own book. He admits that The national Grand Lodge never shut down in 1877, that the NGL met in 1877 and 1880 and that their meetings were carried in the Pittsburgh Commercial Gazzette and the the Every Evening (Wilmington Delaware newspaper), and in as previously mentions in the minutes of The Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Ohio that the NGL was not disbanded. So once again NGL has a PHA writer attempting to clear up thier own dogma and rhetoric.

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  12. tjmonty32

    tjmonty32 Registered User

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    Another quick question, what does ther term "state rights" refer to. Also the name " Prince Hall Affilate ", ever ask what they were affilated to. To Prince Hall Original, henceforth PHO - PHA. It is not necessarily my intention to change a brothers mind, however I will convey the truth that Prince Hall Origin, National Compact, Free and Accepted Ancient York Masons, USA area alive and well. That we are the same PHO that created the National Compact in 1847, and thererby most of the black lodges in America durings a certain time. That we are the descendents of African lodge 459 and thus decendents of Prince Hall.

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  13. perryel

    perryel Registered User

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    NGL still exists. Got it. PHO shares a legitimate Masonic history with PHA. Got it. At some point, there was a schism that placed the authority claimed by NGL beyond the bounds of regular Freemasonry. Got it. Therefore, despite its historical origins, the contemporary NGL is irregular.

    Someone please close this thread.


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  14. mraymc4

    mraymc4 Registered User

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  15. BryanMaloney

    BryanMaloney Premium Member

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    I think that part of the problem is that some sort of strange version of "Once Regular, Always Regular" seems to be promulgated. Even if a body at one time was Regular, this in no way means that it has remained Regular to the present day. Likewise, lapsing of a body into irregularity does not retroactively turn previously-associated bodies irregular.
     
  16. tjmonty32

    tjmonty32 Registered User

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    Perryel, using your answer means that PHA is irregular. PLease become familiar with your own history. Many, many historians have declared PHA irregular, clandestine at many points in history. So watch what logic you use againt other bodies as they apply to PHA as well. Be aware that it has only been 20 years that PHA was recognized by mainstream, prior to that mainstream had plenty of evicence that said PHA was bogus.

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  17. perryel

    perryel Registered User

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    If you have issues with the irregularity of NGL, you should take them up with the proper Masonic authorities. I certainly don't claim to hold the right to sit in judgement on matters such as these; but, simply state the facts as they exist. Perhaps you should express your concerns to the respective Grand Masters of your jurisdiction, or extend the same appeal to UGLE. I'll personally champion your efforts to heal the entire system.

    Five Points of Fellowship...
    ..




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  18. tjmonty32

    tjmonty32 Registered User

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    I agree, five points.

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  19. Mindovermatter Ace

    Mindovermatter Ace Registered User

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    PHO is NOT of the Prince Hall Origin that they claim. They are not the same as the National Grand Lodge of old. The schism occurred because of the NGL expelling GMs of PH GLs, specifically the GM of OH, who at that time, had the largest PH GL in America. The National Grand Lodge was founded by Prince Hall Grand Masters of the first 4 PHA GLs. Namely the GL of PA (PH) & GLoOH (PH) were key players. James Berry who was DGM of the PA GL at the time, and an advocate of the NGL along with John Parsons who was a member of the PH GL of OH, I think he was GM at the time, went about the country making masons. They ended up here in Louisiana. There was a local schism and the PH GL split. James Berry was expelled. Upon his expulsion from the Prince Hall Grand Lodge, he formed a compact GL in Louisiana and sat as its first GM. At this point in history the Compact GL was larger than the PH GL, being that James Berry was very influential in Prince Hall masonry and many brothers following him to the new Compact GL. Nonetheless, the two GLs merged when a conference was held and it was voted by both sides to dissolve the NGL never to return. The merger in my state formed the now Most Worshipful Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Louisiana. My point in telling a bit about my GL's history, is to show that the NGL died many years ago, although they did not cease to working. The modern PHO is not that of the NGL of old. They are not the same, as you can see with my GL and many other GLs in America that are PHA. Majority of PHA GLs are mergers of the 2. So PHO has no lineage to Prince Hall masonry, nor masonry at all for that matter. Which is why they are not a recognized body anywhere in the world outside of themselves. Not only are they not recognized, but they are not regular in origin either.
     
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  20. Keith D. McKeever Jr.

    Keith D. McKeever Jr. Premium Member

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    I have two uncles who is PHO as I am PHA like my father and grandfather. One of these uncles who use to overlook the East coast region was trying to explain to me why there was so much confusion between the two. Reading this threads helps me a great deal.
     

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