Why does Freemasonry require a belief in God?

[Derek Barclay]

I think you guys are too smart for me. Don't let the intermediate vocab fool you - I am an ignoramus... yet it is not my choice

I do appreciate all of the responses. These kinds of discussions amuse me. Never stop amusing yourself.

 

[hanzosbm]

If all people understood the meaning of life and the optimum way of interacting with the world and its' people, wouldn't that make for a better world for all? Why sell a cure when you can give it away? If the teachings of Freemasonry helped convince one of God's presence, would it not be better to welcome all, especially the doubters.

As a non believer, if I told you that the meaning of life was wrapped up in one's relationship with God, would you believe me? Of course not. It would be foolish to accept a conclusion based on what you feel to be incorrect rationale.

As for your questions, I can't speak for everyone, but for me, I welcome earnest questions. However, when my responses to those questions are challenged, there is the beginning of a shift from sharing knowledge to arguing. The prior I'm happy to do, the latter I have no interest in.

 

[Derek Barclay]

As a non believer, if I told you that the meaning of life was wrapped up in one's relationship with God, would you believe me? Of course not. It would be foolish to accept a conclusion based on what you feel to be incorrect rationale.

I think I would accept a proposition given enough evidence for the case. Perhaps one has to believe first for the evidence to come to light - though I'm not sure how that would work because I don't appear to form my convictions consciously.

As for your questions, I can't speak for everyone, but for me, I welcome earnest questions. However, when my responses to those questions are challenged, there is the beginning of a shift from sharing knowledge to arguing. The prior I'm happy to do, the latter I have no interest in.

I don't intend to be argumentative or challenge your responses, merely extrapolate. I really am just trying to have a conversation, and I'm sorry for the confusion.

 

[Derek Barclay]

Maybe I'm just not mature enough yet. Maybe I will never be. I don't really know what you're trying to say with that last post. I understand the words invdividually, to a degree, but to read them arranged as you have them leaves me confused. Your attempt to explain it to me does show your concern however, and for that I'm appreciative.

 

[Glen Cook]

Maybe I'm just not mature enough yet. Maybe I will never be. I don't really know what you're trying to say with that last post. I understand the words invdividually, to a degree, but to read them arranged as you have them leaves me confused. Your attempt to explain it to me does show your concern however, and for that I'm appreciative.

I doubt if most of us understood it.

 

[pointwithinacircle2]

Disclaimer: I have no idea if James' intent is the same as my interpretation.

Actually the process of recognizing that Life has a meaning is not based on reason or evidence but on experience.

I say something similar when I tell people "Life does not have meaning, it has purpose. When you find your purpose and begin working toward it you create meaning in your life".

The human experiences Life through a body of both subtle and dense matter.

Dense matter refers to the physical world. Subtle matter refers to the non-physical self; thoughts, emotions, inspiration, intuition, etc.

Freemasonry encourages progressive control over the various desires that manifest through the physical body and that leads to recognition of the reality of the meaning of Life.

A person who does not control themselves is not able to direct the course of their life. If a person does not find a purpose or focus for their life they will find less meaning than someone who does.

The meaning (source) of Life in some cultures is labelled God. This is not to be confused with the various gods of human traditions, where the theologians commonly claimed that their tribal god was God.

This is a caution against confusing God with religion. Sometimes people will see the many faults found in religion and think that God must not exist. Religion is a vehicle that is intended to get what James refers to as the "subtle matter" to it's best possible destination. This is like driving a 1998 Ford to Chicago. Sure the car will get you there, but you should never allow yourself to believe that Chicago IS a 1998 Ford just because that is how YOU got there.

 

[Derek Barclay]

I say something similar when I tell people "Life does not have meaning, it has purpose. When you find your purpose and begin working toward it you create meaning in your life".

I can agree with that. Currently, my purpose is to figure out what would be the best way to live my life and to provide a certain level of comfort for my mom so that she doesn't have to work until she dies. I also feel like my purpose to to make sure I don't lose my mind because frankly, sometimes my grasp on reality is slippery.

A person who does not control themselves is not able to direct the course of their life. If a person does not find a purpose or focus for their life they will find less meaning than someone who does.

I agree with this as well, though I'm no longer convinced that I'm in control as much as our subjective experience lets on.
I don't consider my Self to be something riding behind my eyes. I don't consider my Self to have a body; rather 'I' am my body, my mind, & even the world at large because it appears to all be interconnected.

This is a caution against confusing God with religion. Sometimes people will see the many faults found in religion and think that God must not exist.

I try not to fall victim to that fallacy. I lack a belief in an overseeing conscious entity, guiding the happenings of our lives. If that were to be the case, I'd imagine the world and its' people would be more at peace, but I'm also aware that that could simply be a failure of perception on my part.

 

[Ressam]

Actually the process of recognizing that Life has a meaning is not based on reason or evidence but on experience.

The human experiences Life through a body of both subtle and dense matter. As the human establishes control over the various physical desires, the human necessarily recognizes that it has existence beyond the levels on which those desires exist.

The highest of the desires related to the physical world is the desire for power over that physical world. Once the human has that desire under control, the human necessarily understands that it exists beyond the physical world - because the physical world is now seen as less than the human.

The human then recognizes that Life has meaning, but still has no idea of the nature of that meaning.

The meaning (source) of Life in some cultures is labelled God. This is not to be confused with the various gods of human traditions, where the theologians commonly claimed that their tribal god was God.

Freemasonry encourages progressive control over the various desires that manifest through the physical body and that leads to recognition of the reality of the meaning of Life.

Life of Human Beings is -- Belief/Faith. Belief=Life.
It's the function of our immortal "souls". To believe.
"Soul" is the "small part of God" inside of us.
God's Desire is that: He wants his Children to be happy.

 

[Derek Barclay]

You are probably aware of the Gaia Theory http://www.gaiatheory.org/ in which the Earth is seen to have been so responsive in rebalancing after external stimuli that it is useful to think of it as alive. This is a scientific rediscovery of the ancient belief in the aliveness of the Earth Mother.

So if the Earth is alive then most of the other planets must be also. Then we ask if the solar system behaves as if it is alive - and the galaxy and the universe.

I've certainly viewed this as a possibility. Atoms form cells which form my body, including my brain, which results in consciousness. I can see how the concept could be expanded to include the world, the galaxies, and the universe as a whole - and perhaps it too results in a consciousness.

So we have possibility that universe itself may have an indwelling intelligence. In Freemasonry this intelligence is referred to as the Great Architect of the Universe.

But here is where I hit a speedbump. Are plants & animals intelligent? They are alive, no doubt, but to say they are aware the way that we are aware may be a mistake. And maybe it's true. I can't say I believe one way or the other. To aspire for absolute honesty, I must say "I don't know."

I doubt that the GAOTU sees individual humans unless their light is unusually bright.

What do you mean by 'light'?

 

[Derek Barclay]

The spirit in the human manifests through a system of progressively denser energy bodies, down through mental, emotional and physical.

Each of these energy bodies comprises a spectrum or octave from densest to most ethereal substance/energy.

Thus a human whose energy bodies exist at the dense end of each spectrum, in common parlance, has heavy vibes, because that is what the energy bodies contain and transmit - heavy thoughts and feelings.

As the human refines its physical body (lifestyle and diet) and emotional body (right relationships) and mental body (creative thoughts), those bodies shed the unused heavy substance to become progressively lighter.

I read this and re-read it multiple times - all while looking up definitions of many of the words. I still am not sure what you are trying to convey.

Freemasonry teaches the brethren to improve emotional and mental patterns and this allows a natural increase in the internal light of each brother.

If my thought processes keep me from believing, it seems yall could help me see the light by showing me the way to improve my emotional and mental patterns.

Can't you just tell me what to do, in layman lingo? Perhaps I'm giving myself too much credit, but I think if I had a cure to what ails someone, I'd just give it to them.

 

[Glen Cook]

I read this and re-read it multiple times - all while looking up definitions of many of the words. I still am not sure what you are trying to convey.



If my thought processes keep me from believing, it seems yall could help me see the light by showing me the way to improve my emotional and mental patterns.

Can't you just tell me what to do, in layman lingo? Perhaps I'm giving myself too much credit, but I think if I had a cure to what ails someone, I'd just give it to them.

No, you are giving us too much credit. We do not have the abilities of which you indicate you are in need. You may be surprised at the number of mentally ill Masons whom I've represented.

 

[Derek Barclay]

I'm relatively clean. I consume cannabis, though lately not so much. I've quite smoking cigarettes after being a pack/day smoker for more than 6 years. I still need to excercise more, though I can't seem to do it.

Over the last several years I have grown a great appreciation for the people in my life; unfortunately it has been the result of people dying and my mother losing her foot. Sometimes I hate myself for that.

Most of my thoughts are generally optimistic, and I try to create music on a daily basis, but I often fail on that front.

Morality, in my mind, is epitomized in the Golden Rule, which I strive to adhere to... but I often fail on that front as well.

Much of my frustration comes from my seemingly lack of free will. Is this just an error in judgment? How do yall think I could change this?

 

[Bill Lins]

Most of my thoughts are generally optimistic, and I try to create music on a daily basis, but I often fail on that front.

Morality, in my mind, is epitomized in the Golden Rule, which I strive to adhere to... but I often fail on that front as well.

Much of my frustration comes from my seemingly lack of free will. Is this just an error in judgment? How do yall think I could change this?

It is not a "lack of free will", it IS free will. What is lacking is the self-discipline needed to accomplish those things one desires to accomplish. No one else can do it for you- you must, if it is important enough to you, do it for yourself.

 

[coachn]

...Much of my frustration comes from my seemingly lack of free will. Is this just an error in judgment? How do yall think I could change this?

Let's cut the BS with a simple syllogism Derek,

If
1) you do indeed believe that you do not have free will,

Then
2) you do believe that you're not in control of asking how you can change your free will,
and
3) you do believe that you are not in control of your doubt over your judgments,
and
4) you do believe that you are also not in control of your will to not accept free will
and
5) you do believe that you are not in control of your non-belief in free will.

Furthermore,
6) you do believe that you are not in control of your belief in God not existing.

Therefore,
7) Should we precede down this path
and
8) not waste precious resources,
9) first convince me through sound premise and sound argument that you have free will
and
10) that you can exercise this free will fully,
and
11) without any excuses that something outside your control has greater influence over your thinking, reasoning, emotions, decisions and choices than you,
and
12) I shall seriously entertain the notion that you are indeed in control of your request.

Otherwise,
13) I shall have to take it on faith that, from what you share, you are not in control and something or someone else who is more powerful than you is using you as a sock-puppet and this conversation is a waste of time for those participating on this thread.

Are you doing the math?

 

[coachn]

JamestheJust said: ↑
I doubt that the GAOTU sees individual humans unless their light is unusually bright.

What do you mean by 'light'?

JamestheJust said: ↑
The spirit in the human manifests through a system of progressively denser energy bodies, down through mental, emotional and physical.

Each of these energy bodies comprises a spectrum or octave from densest to most ethereal substance/energy.

Thus a human whose energy bodies exist at the dense end of each spectrum, in common parlance, has heavy vibes, because that is what the energy bodies contain and transmit - heavy thoughts and feelings.

As the human refines its physical body (lifestyle and diet) and emotional body (right relationships) and mental body (creative thoughts), those bodies shed the unused heavy substance to become progressively lighter.

I read this and re-read it multiple times - all while looking up definitions of many of the words. I still am not sure what you are trying to convey.

You are not alone in that unsuredness. Be forewarned: the fertility is not in the words you ponder herein; it lay in ultimately concluding that there are much more powerful ways to communicate simple ideas without using esoteric words that only appear to be communicating something of substance.

He could have simply said, "I believe God only sees those who appear brighter than others", rather than, "I doubt that the GAOTU sees individual humans unless their light is unusually bright."

Can't you just tell me what to do, in layman lingo?

No. I cannot. I shall not. I will not.

 

[hanzosbm]

My belief is very similar to the one given by James the Just; that we are born with natural, animalistic impulses. We are also given free will and have been given, by some avenue or another, instruction on what is right and what is wrong. It is up to us to use our free will and, as Bill_Lins put it, our self discipline, to overcome those instincts and do what we know is right.
In Freemasonry we often say that we give men tools to make themselves better. The fact of the matter is, every man already has the tools. Explaining to a man that he should be a good person by way of metaphors doesn't give him any more direction than just telling him he should be a good person. To me, the benefit of Freemasonry is putting into context WHY he should be a good person. I've heard it said that current generations don't know the difference between right and wrong. I call BS on that. They/we know, they/we just choose to ignore it. Let's be honest, the carnal pleasures of life are fun. I could spend the weekend knocking over a liquor store and using the money to buy hookers and blow and have a great time, so why don't I? Because I know it's wrong (and some other reasons, but it's an example, just go with it). So, what is the benefit of doing the right thing? Ready for the bombshell? Okay, here it is...in MY opinion...not a damn thing. There is absolutely no benefit (in terms of the big picture) to right action. HOWEVER, there is infinite benefit to becoming a good person, and becoming a good person has to do with diligently working to rid oneself of those base instincts that serve as motivation to do bad things. It is only through the constant application of self discipline that we can hope to ultimately transform ourselves. And I honestly believe it is the most difficult task that someone can ever undertake, but also the most important.
I work on it every day, and I fail everyday. Some days I do great, others, I mess up. But I keep working at it relentlessly and I can say for certain that I am better today than I was a year ago, and if I remain vigilant, I'll be better in a year than I am today. My goal is to someday be perfect. Impossible you say? Maybe, but I can guarantee that I'll fail if I don't try.

(For the brothers here, yes, I realize how similar all of this sounds. I could've written the whole thing with Masonic symbolism, but I refrained for non-Masons. If you are a Freemason and don't know what I mean, reread it, think about our symbols, particularly from the 3rd section of the 1st degree)

 

[NY.Light.II]

My belief is very similar to the one given by James the Just; that we are born with natural, animalistic impulses. We are also given free will and have been given, by some avenue or another, instruction on what is right and what is wrong. It is up to us to use our free will and, as Bill_Lins put it, our self discipline, to overcome those instincts and do what we know is right.
In Freemasonry we often say that we give men tools to make themselves better. The fact of the matter is, every man already has the tools. Explaining to a man that he should be a good person by way of metaphors doesn't give him any more direction than just telling him he should be a good person. To me, the benefit of Freemasonry is putting into context WHY he should be a good person. I've heard it said that current generations don't know the difference between right and wrong. I call BS on that. They/we know, they/we just choose to ignore it. Let's be honest, the carnal pleasures of life are fun. I could spend the weekend knocking over a liquor store and using the money to buy hookers and blow and have a great time, so why don't I? Because I know it's wrong (and some other reasons, but it's an example, just go with it). So, what is the benefit of doing the right thing? Ready for the bombshell? Okay, here it is...in MY opinion...not a damn thing. There is absolutely no benefit (in terms of the big picture) to right action. HOWEVER, there is infinite benefit to becoming a good person, and becoming a good person has to do with diligently working to rid oneself of those base instincts that serve as motivation to do bad things. It is only through the constant application of self discipline that we can hope to ultimately transform ourselves. And I honestly believe it is the most difficult task that someone can ever undertake, but also the most important.
I work on it every day, and I fail everyday. Some days I do great, others, I mess up. But I keep working at it relentlessly and I can say for certain that I am better today than I was a year ago, and if I remain vigilant, I'll be better in a year than I am today. My goal is to someday be perfect. Impossible you say? Maybe, but I can guarantee that I'll fail if I don't try.

(For the brothers here, yes, I realize how similar all of this sounds. I could've written the whole thing with Masonic symbolism, but I refrained for non-Masons. If you are a Freemason and don't know what I mean, reread it, think about our symbols, particularly from the 3rd section of the 1st degree)

I agree with most of this. The question is if you need to place faith in a conceptualized God to behave morally? As I have said elsewhere in this thread, I contend morality can be achieved outside of the intellectual scheme of a God-ordered/created universe. On the point of free will, of course we have free will. We have no choice to not have it . The more central to all these concepts seems to be whether a moral man, who is atheist, is fit for freemasonry. This is where the disagreement is. I will concede to those regular Masons here that the current landmarks and subsidiary rules prohibit this. Could it be opened up to include atheists? I think so.

But of course, I am young, not a mason (in any sense, regular or irregular), and still have much to learn about many topics, not only freemasonry.

 

[hanzosbm]

I agree with most of this. The question is if you need to place faith in a conceptualized God to behave morally? As I have said elsewhere in this thread, I contend morality can be achieved outside of the intellectual scheme of a God-ordered/created universe. On the point of free will, of course we have free will. We have no choice to not have it . The more central to all these concepts seems to be whether a moral man, who is atheist, is fit for freemasonry. This is where the disagreement is. I will concede to those regular Masons here that the current landmarks and subsidiary rules prohibit this. Could it be opened up to include atheists? I think so.

But of course, I am young, not a mason (in any sense, regular or irregular), and still have much to learn about many topics, not only freemasonry.

Well, let me start off by saying that I did not intend to suggest that atheists can't be moral. My last post was written, deleted, rewritten, and revised several times as I kept going off on unintended tangents. Somewhere, in one of those versions, I had talked about the moral differences between atheists and believers. In short, of course, an atheist can be just as good of a man as a believer. In fact, an argument could be made that an atheist doing the right thing simply because it is the right thing to do holds the moral high ground against a believer who does the right thing out of fear of divine retribution.
All of that aside, in terms of atheists in Freemasonry, it is still my contention, as it has been from the beginning, that belief is still necessary.

As I said before, Freemasonry, in my opinion, is more about WHY to be a good person. And Freemasonry's rationale behind the 'why' has to do with our place and our purpose on Earth as it relates to a Supreme Being. To me, this is roughly the same thing as a priest telling you 'do the right thing because God wants you to'. If you don't believe in God, that means absolutely nothing to you, so why go to church to be told what God wants you to do? Granted, the 'why' is far more complicated than that, but it still revolves around our relationship with God. What is the point of joining a group that focuses on doing God's will if you don't believe in God?

 

[Derek Barclay]

There are various well-known disciplines that can help, including yoga, martial arts, meditation, and memorization.

I have wanted to practice meditation for quite a while now. It all comes back to the absence of volition. I had struggled with getting/keeping a job for most of adult life. My family would always say, 'Just do it.' I failed to understand how to do that; they failed to understand my shortcomings. Only quite recently have I been able to stay employed, and though I'm not certain of the reason, it appears that I just outgrew the social anxiety, atleast enough to keep the job. I still have panic attacks.

It is not a "lack of free will", it IS free will. What is lacking is the self-discipline needed to accomplish those things one desires to accomplish. No one else can do it for you- you must, if it is important enough to you, do it for yourself.

I agree. I tell myself, "Do it." It's as though I'm paralyzed by fear. Fear is a constant theme of my daily life. I'm slowly becoming desensitized, and perhaps that's all it takes. Repetition and time.

Let's cut the BS with a simple syllogism Derek,

If
1) you do indeed believe that you do not have free will,

Then
2) you do believe that you're not in control of asking how you can change your free will,
and
3) you do believe that you are not in control of your doubt over your judgments,
and
4) you do believe that you are also not in control of your will to not accept free will
and
5) you do believe that you are not in control of your non-belief in free will.

Furthermore,
6) you do believe that you are not in control of your belief in God not existing.

Therefore,
7) Should we precede down this path
and
8) not waste precious resources,
9) first convince me through sound premise and sound argument that you have free will
and
10) that you can exercise this free will fully,
and
11) without any excuses that something outside your control has greater influence over your thinking, reasoning, emotions, decisions and choices than you,
and
12) I shall seriously entertain the notion that you are indeed in control of your request.

Otherwise,
13) I shall have to take it on faith that, from what you share, you are not in control and something or someone else who is more powerful than you is using you as a sock-puppet and this conversation is a waste of time for those participating on this thread.

It's no bullshit. Possibly mistakes, but not bullshit. I am being sincere, and you appear to be losing your patience. I don't like to be annoying or pedantic, but it appears those are the results of discussing these things in the only way I know how. I am sorry.

On your final point, #13: I, and everything else, is at the mercy of circumstance. So I would say, yes, I am controlled by somethings... but 'someone'? I've yet to see a reason to believe that.

We may be going in circles saying the same things, just in different ways.

Let's be honest, the carnal pleasures of life are fun. I could spend the weekend knocking over a liquor store and using the money to buy hookers and blow and have a great time, so why don't I?

I don't do bad things because I'm aware - not through my will but by chance - of what they lead to. It could be said that selfless acts are done on a selfish basis, which may be true, but I see no problem with this. The ends can sometimes justify the means.

On the point of free will, of course we have free will. We have no choice to not have it

See, we may actually be in agreement much more so than my words let on. I've often said we need a new language...

 

[Ressam]

Freemasonry teaches the brethren to improve emotional and mental patterns and this allows a natural increase in the internal light of each brother.

When brethren from the temple in the heavens cooperate with a human brother, the intensity of the internal light may become quite great, even visible to other humans. Traditionally this is depicted as a halo.

Very nice!
Explanation please!