Knights of Columbus

[Alhambran]

understand the Knights of Columbus was started by a priest near Boston.. ! he either knew a lot about Masonary or was a mason.. ! when they started it was go give jobs to Italian american .. ! if you owned a business you were suppose to hire another..? they first started with the three degrees .. ! as I understand they are some-what like the masonary degrees but don't know for sure.. ! at a later date they added a fourth degree call the flag degree...? don't know much about their degrees... ! we have a couple of members of our lodge who are also members of the Knights of Columbus... ! but have never ask them about it..? I know they can not meet without a preist present..?

Ideally a cleric (priest or deacon) as the chaplain would be present at meetings, but just as with any officer who might not be available, its common not to have the chaplain present - I've been to KC meetings where the chaplain has often been absent. If we waited for when he could be available, we'd only meet a few times a year and get nothing done.

 

[Alhambran]

The rank-and-file SMOM members do not get SMOM passports - that is for the leadership and select elite and "working members" in the organization. I would estimate that 10% (and that's being very generous) of SMOM members have SMOM passports.

Nope. The knights hospitlars exist today as the Soverign Military Order of Malta and are not to be confused with knights of malta on york rite commandery. This is a very "interesting" catholic military order of global aristocracy. These guys have their own internationaly recognized sovereignty and thus have dual citizenship from their order(they issue their own passports). Their GM ranks as head of state, ecclesiastic ranking as cardinal and secular ranking as prince. Their higher grades of knights mush be able to display a coat of arms dating three centuries in unbroken succession from pop to son. Their members include George H W Bush, Ruppert Murdoch, Tony Blair, and the late William F Buckley among others. Please tell me if I am wrong; I stand to be corrected......

 

[Alhambran]

Are the Knights of Columbus the same as the Knights of Saint Columba?
Knights of St Columba

No, but the Knights of St. Columba are modelled after the Knights of Columbus - even the silhouette of their emblem is the same as the Knights of Columbus. The actual similarities at the council and ritual level, may end at the emblem. I can't say for sure. I'm aware of the Knights of St. Columba (and the Knights of St. Columbanus in Ireland), but I can't say I know a great deal about them.

 

[Alhambran]

To answer your question, not meant as a condemnation, not to insult anyone...

It is also not my intent to get into any debate about right or wrongness of Catholic objections to Freemasonry.

Aside from the well-known historical/political issues, real or perceived, the Catholic theological objection is summarized as follows:

The notion of "Undefined Deism" - the GAOTU is not explicitly the Judeo-Christian deity.
The taking of "blood oaths", with the promise of maiming others, or agreeing to be maimed themselves
One common objection heard is that these oaths are just symbolic, or in jest, to which the CC would then assert that the oaths are....
Oaths taken in vain - invoking god, or swearing before god something that is not true.

No individual priest or bishop may grant a dispensation lifting the excommunication for Masonic membership - let's call it for what it is - being told "not to approach the sacraments" is excommunication. Its not the formal proclamation commonly thought of, but it is no less binding. According to the CC, merely joining incurs ipso facto excommunication.

I believe that one day the prohibition against Freemasonry will eventually be lifted.

Great discussion about the K of C and Freemasonry.
As a practicing and baptized Catholic I have a unique perspective on both along with the conflicts between the Roman Catholic Church in my area and my blue lodge.

Too lengthy to provide all the details but since October 2010 it has been a non-stop headache. Starting with a phone call from the Grand Knight of the local K of C council. Of course he got my cell phone number from the parochial school directory so thats been subsequently removed. The next phone call was from the parish priest, who admitted that he knew nothing about Freemasonry and had no idea why the Church disapproves but he knew I shouldnt belong. We agreed to disagree after an 90 minute conversation. I refused to meet in his office as that was a hostile environment. He subsequently refused to meet for lunch and absolutely refused to meet at the lodge so I could show him around and explain the symbolism. When asked how he knows I am a Mason, he told me that some parishoners had googled my name and it showed my involvement.

This has been followed with anonymous notes left on my truck. My truck has masonic stickers on it along with a Catholic War Veterans sticker so I am sure that kills the offended members. A year ago my wife was called into the Catholic school office where she works and has the diocesian lawyer instruct her to remove the blue slipper sticker off her truck or be terminated. She removed it as she loves her job and my daughter enjoys the school she attends.

This past December the school principal called one evening and asked if I could meet her at the school. Thinking she needed something fixed, I brought my tool box. She very bluntly told me that the parish priest had directed her to get information on my Masonic involvement. I refused to give her any information. Although we remain speaking acquaintences we are far from friends. It is also ironic that several parents have approached the school board to have my wife removed from teaching since her husband is a Mason and they are afraid that I will try to convert them. Convert them to what is a total mystery to me. The most vocal parent actually took her son to the Scottish Rite learning center for help with dyslexia this past year. She remains blissfully ignorant that the clinic is a Masonic charity.

Summary: the US Catholic Church is not friendly with Freemasonry. I am always at a loss to understand or explain why this division exists. I personally believe that what may have happened hundreds of years ago has little to no bearing on affairs today but that is a moot argument.
I love my Church and remain a devoted Catholic but its been difficult. Currently the US Conference of Catholic Bishops have initiated investigations on the Boy Scouts of America and the Girl Scouts of America alleging that they are counter to Catholicism. The allegation is that they do not require a belief in Jesus Christ as dictated by the Church. The same traits are shared by Alcoholics Anonymous and many organizations.
Galileo was excomunicated from the Catholic Church for his beliefs that the earth revolved around the sun. For 350 years he remained banned from the Church until 1992 when Pope John Paul II issue a statement admitting error on the part of the Church. I believe that someday, not in my lifetime, this will be the same for Freemasonry. I may not live to see it but I will pray for it to happen and I will remain a devoted Roman Catholic and a dedicated Freemason, Scottish Rite Mason, York Rite Mason, and National Sojourner.

 

[BryanMaloney]

Nope. The knights hospitlars exist today as the Soverign Military Order of Malta and are not to be confused with knights of malta on york rite commandery. This is a very "interesting" catholic military order of global aristocracy. These guys have their own internationaly recognized sovereignty and thus have dual citizenship from their order(they issue their own passports). Their GM ranks as head of state, ecclesiastic ranking as cardinal and secular ranking as prince. Their higher grades of knights mush be able to display a coat of arms dating three centuries in unbroken succession from pop to son. Their members include George H W Bush, Ruppert Murdoch, Tony Blair, and the late William F Buckley among others. Please tell me if I am wrong; I stand to be corrected......

None of these alleged "members" are eligible for membership in the Sovereign Order. One MUST be an active, practicing Roman Catholic. Blair is ineligible because he is not of the nobility.

 

[Alhambran]

Nobility per se is not a requirement to get into SMOM. There are different classes of membership (off the top of my head):

Knights of Justice
Knights of Grace
Knights of Magisterial Grace
Knights of Obedience with Professed vows.

Only one of those classes of SMOM require nobility (I forget which one), if I'm not mistaken. At least one of the other classes allow "commoners" to join. I know one gentleman who is involved in similar organizations, and was invited into SMOM. He certain doesn't have "noble blood" or lineage. This particular gentleman declined membership because of his age and health, his current commitment to several other organizations, and, frankly, money - the "passage fees" and yearly oblations for SMOM are considerable when compared to other similar organizations the gentleman is involved with.

None of these alleged "members" are eligible for membership in the Sovereign Order. One MUST be an active, practicing Roman Catholic. Blair is ineligible because he is not of the nobility.

 

[Alhambran]

Now that having been said KoC as I understand it is basically Catholic rectified Freemasonry. As well, they like to trace their mystic roots back to a Catholic order of Warrior Monks during the Crusades called the Knights Hospitlar (Knights of the Hospital) who just so happened to be garrisoned at a the hospital in Jerusalem at the same time another Catholic order of Warrior Monks were garrisoned at the al-Aqsa Mosque, built upon the site of the Temple of Solomon. They were called The Poor Fellows Soldiery of Jesus Christ and of the Temple of Solomon or, for short, the Knights of the Temple or Knights Templar.

The KCs make no pretense as being a modern incarnation of any of the Crusading orders. There are some symbolic words alluding to the "knights of old" (or words to that effect), but the KCs are merely a fraternity, despite what some KC 4th Degree members believe.

 

[Alhambran]

Regarding other groups mentioned in this thread....

UK's version of the Knights of Columbus:
Knights of St. Columba - www.ksc.org.uk


Ireland's version...
Knights of St. Columbanus - www.knightsofstcolumbanus.ie

Order of Alhambra: www.orderalhambra.org

 

[Plustax]

I recall a Mason down in S. Tx (Beeville) having to "renounce" his Masonic ties in order to go back in to the Catholic church. Anyone heard of something like this before. This just happened last year and I knew that the person had been a Mason for quite some time. I recall meeting him once or twice during my visits there. I was kinda shocked when my brother told me that in order for him to be accepted back in the Catholic church he had to renounce being a Mason and then wait a certain amount of time before being allowed to participate in certain church positions.

 

[Alhambran]

I recall a Mason down in S. Tx (Beeville) having to "renounce" his Masonic ties in order to go back in to the Catholic church. Anyone heard of something like this before. This just happened last year and I knew that the person had been a Mason for quite some time. I recall meeting him once or twice during my visits there. I was kinda shocked when my brother told me that in order for him to be accepted back in the Catholic church he had to renounce being a Mason and then wait a certain amount of time before being allowed to participate in certain church positions.

That sounds mostly right - renounce membership, or at least withdraw your membership. The waiting part seems a bit unusual, but perhaps it was some sort of penance applied?

It also depends on $$, as one poster here noted - a wealthy Masonic Catholic was given a dispensation by the local ordinary (bishop), which they lack the authority to do, BTW, because the said Masonic Catholic was a big-time donor to the Church.

I have an uncle of means who is a 32nd Degree Mason. When he got married, he was asked if he were a member of any "secret society". He admitted his membership in the Lodge, and the pastor hesitated, to which my uncle responded that he'd leave the Church before he left the Masons. The pastor married him in the Church...

I'm a small-fry. I'm not a captain of industry, nor a big-money donor, so I doubt I'd get a pass...

 

[davidjones201]

Lol

 

[Bill Lins]

Dunno how I've missed this thread before.

We initiated a candidate a couple of weeks ago. On his petition he stated that he belonged to the Eagles, but nothing else.

Two days after his initiation, he called our SW (who had given him his petition) and advised that he had gotten a call from the Grand Knight of the local KC Council, who said our EA could either be a Mason or a KC, but not both.

He told our SW that, as he had been a KC for many years, he had decided to stick with them and withdraw from the Lodge. According to him, the problem was with the KCs, not the Catholic Church itself.

 

[Roy Vance]

Dunno how I've missed this thread before.

We initiated a candidate a couple of weeks ago. On his petition he stated that he belonged to the Eagles, but nothing else.

Two days after his initiation, he called our SW (who had given him his petition) and advised that he had gotten a call from the Grand Knight of the local KC Council, who said our EA could either be a Mason or a KC, but not both.

He told our SW that, as he had been a KC for many years, he had decided to stick with them and withdraw from the Lodge. According to him, the problem was with the KCs, not the Catholic Church itself.

Seems to me that I would have to ask him why he hadn't mentioned his affiliation with the KofC anyway. That, to me, would be the same as lying in his petition by not mentioning it.

 

[STLamb]

I went through the first 3 degrees of the K of C many years ago when I was still a Catholic. No one wants to admit the bottom line about the K of C. Their hidden secret is that it's a Life Insurance Company, and the minute you join, you are pestered by an agent wanting to sell you insurance. In fact, years ago, the insurance used to be mandatory. That's the reall heart of the K of C, and one of the major reasons I left. Also, one of the first things that I fell in love with Freemasonry over is that, other than a raffle ticket here and there, no one is trying to set up sales appointments with me, or trying to take over my finances.

 

[widows son]

Growing up in a catholic setting ( I went to a catholic elementary and high school) I found that it was very unforgiving and harsh. some teachers were very nice, but i never would get them for any of my classes. In "religion" class Any question that could or would have lead to an open forum were stomped out. We learned about other religions in the text books, but the teacher would inject his views as to why they are wrong, then he would assign work based on this, which never had anything to do with learning these religions. I remember in grade school being told that Christ doesn't accept "misbehaved boys." Its funny, would christ accept pedophiles? In high school I started to question my faith, which lead me to asking questions, which instead of a response that would be of guidance and positivity for a 16 year old kid, I got told the consequences for my lack of faith and found myself getting into more trouble with the faculty staff more and more. I by no means was a model student but I always got my work done and graduated with low 80's in some classes. I've also had run ins with my own family on this issue of my "lack of faith." Since I've joined the lodge it hasn't gotten easier, but it hasn't gotten worse so I'm thankful for that. I have no ill will towards anyone of any faith. What you believe in is your own mess to sort out. But one thing I've learned is that no matter what religion or fraternity you belong to, it's people running it right to the top. The pope, is a man. Mohammad was a man. So were all the patriarchs and characters in the bible. A man has no more a better idea of God than the next man standing next to him. Even if it is the pope.

 

[Bill Lins]

Seems to me that I would have to ask him why he hadn't mentioned his affiliation with the KofC anyway. That, to me, would be the same as lying in his petition by not mentioning it.

Good point, but some folks are very sensitive regarding their religion, and it isn't supposed to matter to us once the petitioner professes belief in a Supreme Being of any type.

I sought guidance from the Grand Secretary regarding this situation- the following was his response, which I'm posting for those who may, in the future, find themselves in the same position I was in:

On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 9:06 AM, Grand Secretary <gs@grandsecretaryoftx.org> wrote:

"Dear Bill,

This event occurs at rare times, but Brother Xxxxx is making a tough decision and we will assist him. We have Catholics who belong to both the Grand Lodge of Texas and to the local Knights of Columbus. I understand an old Canon law is on their books that says a man cannot be a Mason and a Catholic, but I have been told that the enforcement of it is by the local Priest and that many do not enforce it. In this case they apparently do.

Please ask him to put his request in writing; then process a Masonic Form No. 30, Certificate of Dismissal;and drop his name from your Lodge rolls. Send the completed Form 30 to me and the Grand Secretary's staff will take care of the process. I recommend that you return his fees to him but that decision is up to your Lodge.

Sincerely and fraternally,
Tom Guest"

 

[Mason Scot]

Other Fraternities

Anyone notice the organizational simularities between the knights of Columbus and masonry? They have three degrees that are simular to blue lodge and one side degree that resembles York Rite commandery. They even have an organization called Daughters of Isabella that are simular to OES and Order of Alhambra that mirrors the Shrine- fez and parade floats included. I understand that they were created by the catholics to allow their church members to take part in fraternity as most others were banned at the time by papal decree, but what strikes my curiousity even more is their choice of namesake. Some historians believe Christopher Columbus was in fact a proto-templar; his ships resemble as such.

Or what about the Odd Fellows? Their origins are traced back to the early 18th century and around the same time that speculative masonry came about. They also have three degrees simular to the blue lodge and four side degrees closely mimicking the York Rite, a ladies auxiliary of Rebeccas, an organization called the Order of Samaritans that is mirrored after the Shrine. Notice the simularities in symbolism! I hear there were quite a few masons also had membership with the Odd Fellows; Albert Pike was one of them.

One significance that makes a distinct difference between the KofC & Freemasonry is the mission; Freemasonry is making good men better while women are included whereas Knights of Columbus are aiding homes that have lost the father, head of household, to a passing away leaving a single mother & kids with no help. I hope you find this helpful.

 

[Winter]

One significance that makes a distinct difference between the KofC & Freemasonry is the mission; Freemasonry is making good men better while women are included whereas Knights of Columbus are aiding homes that have lost the father, head of household, to a passing away leaving a single mother & kids with no help. I hope you find this helpful.

Not sure how helpful this reply is since the original post is from sixteen years ago and the last time anyone posted in this thread before today was eleven years ago. I think the original poster moved on from here a long long time go.