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West Virginia Court Rules That It Has The Power To Force Freemasonry To Follow Its Ow
- Thread starter Squire Bentley
- Start date
Traveling Man
Premium Member
Re: West Virginia Court Rules That It Has The Power To Force Freemasonry To Follow It
Gives one something to ponder?
Gives one something to ponder?
Traveling Man
Premium Member
Re: West Virginia Court Rules That It Has The Power To Force Freemasonry To Follow It
Maybe if they had only met upon the "level"?
Maybe if they had only met upon the "level"?
JohnnyFlotsam
Premium Member
Re: West Virginia Court Rules That It Has The Power To Force Freemasonry To Follow It
Thanks for providing about a year's worth of schadenfreude in a single post, Fred. :001_smile:
Thanks for providing about a year's worth of schadenfreude in a single post, Fred. :001_smile:
Frater Cliff Porter
Premium Member
Re: West Virginia Court Rules That It Has The Power To Force Freemasonry To Follow It
Incorporation has little to do with the Grand Lodge becoming subject to civil court. Fraternities have a special section in tax code, that if incorporated, do so as a Fraternal organization and you are not giving up rights by doing so. It would be the same if the group collected dues and paid taxes as a sole proprietorship.
You are no more subjected to civil courts by being incorporated than you are by owning property.
The courts have ruled over and over again in cases involving private groups that do not directly accept federal funding that they:
Can exclude people based on their own standards and not federal standards.
Can establish a due process, but must keep to their own due process if the member has a financial interest in the group (pays dues)
The groups, such as the Eagles, that ran into problems, did so when they allowed women, took their dues money, then tried to exclude them two years later. The courts said...look you allowed them in, took their money, they have an interest and you can therefore not exclude them.
In West Virginia, the problem the GL is running into is that MWB Frank Haas has a financial interest in the group, they have established a due process and set of standards and then did not adhere to them. He will likely win.
The courts ruled the same way in Ohio against the GL and said, you must follow your own standards.
That being said, if a Grand Lodge had in their code, "The GM can expel any Masons for without cause and without due process at his will pleasure" Frank would not have a case.
There are GL's that the GM has the "will and pleasure" type statutes.
I personally see the GM as an elected representative of a greater whole and I am always saddened when the GL starts to operate as an elitist function of whose who Masons that travel around to dinner and waive in parades. I don't think that is Masonic and do not believe it was, in anyway, the original intention.
Incorporation has little to do with the Grand Lodge becoming subject to civil court. Fraternities have a special section in tax code, that if incorporated, do so as a Fraternal organization and you are not giving up rights by doing so. It would be the same if the group collected dues and paid taxes as a sole proprietorship.
You are no more subjected to civil courts by being incorporated than you are by owning property.
The courts have ruled over and over again in cases involving private groups that do not directly accept federal funding that they:
Can exclude people based on their own standards and not federal standards.
Can establish a due process, but must keep to their own due process if the member has a financial interest in the group (pays dues)
The groups, such as the Eagles, that ran into problems, did so when they allowed women, took their dues money, then tried to exclude them two years later. The courts said...look you allowed them in, took their money, they have an interest and you can therefore not exclude them.
In West Virginia, the problem the GL is running into is that MWB Frank Haas has a financial interest in the group, they have established a due process and set of standards and then did not adhere to them. He will likely win.
The courts ruled the same way in Ohio against the GL and said, you must follow your own standards.
That being said, if a Grand Lodge had in their code, "The GM can expel any Masons for without cause and without due process at his will pleasure" Frank would not have a case.
There are GL's that the GM has the "will and pleasure" type statutes.
I personally see the GM as an elected representative of a greater whole and I am always saddened when the GL starts to operate as an elitist function of whose who Masons that travel around to dinner and waive in parades. I don't think that is Masonic and do not believe it was, in anyway, the original intention.
Traveling Man
Premium Member
Re: West Virginia Court Rules That It Has The Power To Force Freemasonry To Follow It
We shall see... I'm betting the Courts will change the whole game.
The times are a changing...
You know that in Europe an incorporated private organization may not have internal laws
and rules that are contrary to the laws of the country.
However in cases concerning human rights and if lawsuits go to the civil courts, court
decisions will practically always strike down Masonic laws which infringe on those rights.
Considering how recent court cases are being ruled upon via "international law", this is the future.
We shall see... I'm betting the Courts will change the whole game.
The times are a changing...
You know that in Europe an incorporated private organization may not have internal laws
and rules that are contrary to the laws of the country.
However in cases concerning human rights and if lawsuits go to the civil courts, court
decisions will practically always strike down Masonic laws which infringe on those rights.
Considering how recent court cases are being ruled upon via "international law", this is the future.
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Frater Cliff Porter
Premium Member
Re: West Virginia Court Rules That It Has The Power To Force Freemasonry To Follow It
Brother I was commenting on the fact that incorporation in the United States has little or nothing to do with it. The judge in a District Court is not likely to take the incorporation status of the group into the decision making process on this, unless the tax return, corporate or otherwise, shows that the group has accepted federal funds.
That, however, means...that they are in the wrong court. That would be a federal issue and not a state district court issue.
Don't get me wrong. I think that Frank has a great case. But the reason he has a great case has already been firmly established. When you create a due process and then do not guarantee that process to a member with a financial interest (dues paid) interest in the group.
States are sovereigns and so are their courts. It is not likely that any decision made in a West Virginia court will be new, wide, or sweeping.
The truth is, it would not bode well for our personal freedoms if the courts started to butt in more than necessary except when in unique situations like Frank's, a "moderator" was needed.
Brother I was commenting on the fact that incorporation in the United States has little or nothing to do with it. The judge in a District Court is not likely to take the incorporation status of the group into the decision making process on this, unless the tax return, corporate or otherwise, shows that the group has accepted federal funds.
That, however, means...that they are in the wrong court. That would be a federal issue and not a state district court issue.
Don't get me wrong. I think that Frank has a great case. But the reason he has a great case has already been firmly established. When you create a due process and then do not guarantee that process to a member with a financial interest (dues paid) interest in the group.
States are sovereigns and so are their courts. It is not likely that any decision made in a West Virginia court will be new, wide, or sweeping.
The truth is, it would not bode well for our personal freedoms if the courts started to butt in more than necessary except when in unique situations like Frank's, a "moderator" was needed.
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B
Bill Lins
Guest
Re: West Virginia Court Rules That It Has The Power To Force Freemasonry To Follow It
Isn't it amazing that, at a time when we have all the problems we need already, we keep shooting ourselves in the feet?
Isn't it amazing that, at a time when we have all the problems we need already, we keep shooting ourselves in the feet?
Frater Cliff Porter
Premium Member
Re: West Virginia Court Rules That It Has The Power To Force Freemasonry To Follow It
Ya...it stinks. In many ways we have only ourselves to blame. We are the Grand Lodge.
Ya...it stinks. In many ways we have only ourselves to blame. We are the Grand Lodge.
Dave in Waco
Premium Member
Re: West Virginia Court Rules That It Has The Power To Force Freemasonry To Follow It
That is quite correct Bro. Cliff, we are Grand Lodge. And I think that's where things get lost, because I think both us and Grand Lodge have forgetton that in cases such as this. In the case of West Virginia, it sounds like the GM forgot that although he has broad power, he still serves at the will and pleasure of the members of Grand Lodge.
That is quite correct Bro. Cliff, we are Grand Lodge. And I think that's where things get lost, because I think both us and Grand Lodge have forgetton that in cases such as this. In the case of West Virginia, it sounds like the GM forgot that although he has broad power, he still serves at the will and pleasure of the members of Grand Lodge.