Does a woman have to come to OES first?

Discussion in 'Order of the Eastern Star' started by mrpierce17, Jul 26, 2016.

  1. Travelling Man91

    Travelling Man91 Registered User

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    We've discussed this topic till our face was blue. I don't believe the 9 southern PHA GL'S that are not accepted by their counterparts are clandestine, I believe the correct word would be "Unrecognized"
     
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  2. Ripcord22A

    Ripcord22A Site Benefactor

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    I believe the words are interchangable....the CIA has CLANDESTINE operations that are NOT(UN) RECOGNIZED....those PHA lodges arent irregular or bogus or anything like that as they have lineage but since they arent recognized by their counterparts that makes them clandestine untill such a time that they are recognized by their countpartd

    Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app
     
  3. Travelling Man91

    Travelling Man91 Registered User

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    In Masonic language/lingo, what does clandestine mean ?
     
  4. mrpierce17

    mrpierce17 KOP Council director / Lodge instructor Premium Member

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    Unofficial, not recognized,prohibited
     
  5. mrpierce17

    mrpierce17 KOP Council director / Lodge instructor Premium Member

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    According to dictionary ImageUploadedByMy Freemasonry Pro1470228197.084492.jpg
     
  6. Bloke

    Bloke Premium Member

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    As an aside, we even have a few incorporated subordinate lodges
     
  7. Travelling Man91

    Travelling Man91 Registered User

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    I thought clandestine was in reference to no valid lineage etc.
     
  8. mrpierce17

    mrpierce17 KOP Council director / Lodge instructor Premium Member

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    Those groups are also considered clandestine although a GL of state and a MWPHGL not in amity with each other would be considered clandestine to one another
     
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  9. Travelling Man91

    Travelling Man91 Registered User

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    Oh okay. So in other words clandestine, and not recognized are pretty much the same thing ?
     
  10. Ripcord22A

    Ripcord22A Site Benefactor

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    Yeah, essentially. Some brothers wont use the term "clandestine" when speaking of PHA as it conjures up thoughts of irregularity. You can be regular and just as legit as any Mason on here and still be clandestine if you don't have recognition(read:pHA). Or you can be irregular and more bogus then a $3 bill and be clandestine.
     
  11. dfreybur

    dfreybur Premium Member

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    Some jurisdictions use the word that way, but it does not match the way the word is used by Masonic researchers. So the meaning is ambiguous and has to come form context. If your GL calls a GL clandestine that might just be them using the word in a way they decided to but that isn't what is meant outside of that jurisdiction.

    Simply put, some GLs use the word incorrectly but since they get to make the rules in their own jurisdiction they get to do that. "Locally defined" does not contradict "incorrectly used".

    Clandestine is generally about invalid lineage. Some GLs still claim that PHA has invalid lineage but we all know that was long ago declared nonsense. They get to be incorrect within their own boundaries.
     
  12. dfreybur

    dfreybur Premium Member

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    Just before the May deadline for this year's Nov annual communication I attempted to submit legislation to recognize MWPHGLofGA based on that. Because I was not physically present the secretary had no idea what I was talking about so it wasn't presented and missed the deadline. I'll try again this year.
     
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  13. Ripcord22A

    Ripcord22A Site Benefactor

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    we have an occasional GL coming up that I might go to. Never been to a GL meeting before so not sure how it works but if at closing they ask if any brother has anything, I think I will stand and broach this subject!
     
  14. Bill Lins

    Bill Lins Moderating Staff Staff Member

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    In order to be recognized, Grand Lodges are required to be considered as "regular in origin (meaning having proper lineage) and practice (meaning adhering to the commonly accepted "Landmarks")"
    I find the term "not regular in (either origin or practice)" to be much more descriptive and meaningful than the term "clandestine".
     
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  15. Ripcord22A

    Ripcord22A Site Benefactor

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    I like this Bill that is a good way to put it!
     
  16. Travelling Man91

    Travelling Man91 Registered User

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    Agreed. That's what I always understood clandestine to be. Leaning more towards bogus masonry. Even though my GL does not recognize our counterparts, I've yet to hear "clandestine" when speaking of them.
     
  17. Travelling Man91

    Travelling Man91 Registered User

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    Very well agreed.
     
  18. Bloke

    Bloke Premium Member

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    People have chimed in, but definitely not the same. Just because I do not recognize you does not make you clandestine. For instance, we have unrecognized study groups here, but they are far from clandestine. We might not recognise a regular GL in the USA, us not recognizing it does not make it clandestine, simply unrecognised. For me, unrecognised is a relative term, whereas clandestine is a group which is outside the generally accepted landmarks of main stream freemasonry (again that's also subjective, but in "main stream" I am including regular Prince Hall GLs) and which, should I join it, would put me outside my own GL. And I don't quite see "bogus" and "clandestine" as the same. Bogus to me means something made up - like a few guys getting together for the purpose of scamming people. There are clandestine organisations around with long lineages, 50 years ago that would have included many PH GLs - they're were hardly "bogus". And I guess at some point, with a history and good intent not to exploit people, even a "bogus" group might make the transition to the legitimacy of being clandestine :)
     
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  19. Glen Cook

    Glen Cook G A Cook Site Benefactor

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    And that is why the Commission on Information for Recogniton currently tends toward the phrase, "not meeting the standards of recognition."
     
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  20. Travelling Man91

    Travelling Man91 Registered User

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    Can you elaborate on "not meeting the standard for recognition"
     

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