Grand Lodge of Georgia Bans Gay Men

[Ressam]

The main problem is not "my joke" but YOUR REALITY, the way you treat brethren (male or female or homo).
You apparently did not understand(or not want to consider) the opposite argument !
In 1717, about all organisation were "men only". as in some times "white only", as "no slaves accepted".
And the constitution of Grand Lodge of London was set, based on these society rules of THESE TIMES.
When slavery was bannished in Europe, FM constitutions changed.
Army, police, religion were "male only" for thousands of years too ! And they changed !
I dont argue about your personal prefrences for "male only" ! That's your point.
But about the official statements of your organisation stating sexism and homophobia as moral(sic) values !
Army, police have changed and abandonned that ! And many FM organisations too !
Not the main stream of pretended "regular" GL !
By the way, are you allowed to visit as mason, feminine or mixed FM lodges ... ?

No! No & Just No, Mr.Joaben!!!
There's no place for women in Freemasonry!!!
And this is not discrimination to our beautiful "flowers", our inspirations, our Best Friends, who are -- Women!
We, just have different duties/jobs!
Freemasonry is comin' from -- ancient MASONS/BUILDERS/CONSTRUCTORS!
Who were carryin' massive stones, builded Temples, etc.
Did you see women workin' on Constructional Objects anywhere?
No. Women in Freemasonry is mistake. IMHO. Of course, maybe I'm wrong.

 

[coachn]

The main problem is not "my joke" but YOUR REALITY, ...

My reality is not a problem, nor is your judgments of it a problem. Your judgments though are very telling.

...the way you treat brethren (male or female or homo).

The way "I" treat others. Man are you barking up the wrong tree.

You apparently did not understand(or not want to consider) the opposite argument !

Oh, I understood it all right. I simply think that you're barking up the wrong tree there too.

In 1717, about all organisation were "men only". as in some times "white only", as "no slaves accepted".
And the constitution of Grand Lodge of London was set, based on these society rules of THESE TIMES.
When slavery was bannished in Europe, FM constitutions changed.
Army, police, religion were "male only" for thousands of years too ! And they changed !

Yup. and I didn't join an organization that changed the male only requirement because I wanted to belong to an all male organization, and I am very glad that there was one available for me when I did.

I dont argue about your personal prefrences for "male only" ! That's your point.

Ah! But you are attacking the "all male only" concept that I belong to and that point is absolutely unnecessary. There are other versions of Freemasonry that offer other options. I have no interest in them.

But about the official statements of your organisation stating sexism and homophobia as moral(sic) values !

But that is exactly the point! You are not talking about my organization. My organization has made NO SUCH STATEMENTS. You're talking about another organization that is in your head.

Army, police have changed and abandonned that ! And many FM organisations too !

Yes. Many have. The one I chose to join and support is still male only. I like it that way. It works for me quite well. If that doesn't work for you, you can join another version. I joined to work upon changing myself for the better; not work on changing the organization.

Not the main stream of pretended "regular" GL !

I don't truly believe you realize how dismissive and disrespectful you are being here.

By the way, are you allowed to visit as mason, feminine or mixed FM lodges ... ?

Not if they are open and doing their work. But you most likely knew this already so why the unnecessary rhetorical question?

 

[Warrior1256]

Sorry to be so direct. But th "f" of Freemasonery means "frankness" too, No ?

You can be as frank as you want and speak your mind as you please but my statement stands unchanged. We do not need to justify our men only rule. If someone is so greatly bothered by that particular landmark they are free to demit and join a co-masonry lodge. If they do not wish to do this but only want to whine and moan about it they can just be ignored.

 

[coachn]

The man's right...

 

[Bloke]

Thread drift is good... but I keep coming in to read about the attitudes of brothers about the "gay ban" and that issue generally..not so much woman.. and not so much about members dueling in words over stuff I see as petty, no profit or pleasure in that...

On the threads topic this was interesting..

"If homosexuality is now accepted as a societal norm (much like minorities were increasingly accepted as equal members of society after the Civil Rights movement of the 1970’s), and causes no inherent harm within the fraternity or to the fraternity’s public image, then where are these regulations rooted? Arguably, much of the resistance to homosexuality in Masonry has roots in Christianity, the principles and dogma of which have long been interpreted as condemning the practice of homosexuality. But whether or not a given brother or grand officer subscribes to those interpretations is irrelevant where Masonry is concerned as religion has no place inside the walls of the lodge..........Friday’s Supreme Court decision has presented our brotherhood with a distinct opportunity to move forward in line with the ideals upon which our great fraternity was founded: tolerance, harmony, and unity. By embracing toleration for all men under the fatherhood of God regardless of race or sexual orientation, we can set ourselves above today’s polarized society. That toleration, in turn, will promote harmony and build unity within our lodges. By celebrating our diversity rather than condemning it, our fraternity will grow stronger and attract innovative, exceptional young men to join our ranks as men and Masons for years to come."

Read on here http://www.midnightfreemasons.org/2015/07/is-homosexuality-unmasonic.html

 

[Joaben]

Slight modification. Slavery was never banned in Europe as a whole on a specific date. Slavery was outlawed on a piecemeal, country by country basis, and this happened in different years across different countries.

Slavery in Europe was banned

No! No & Just No, Mr.Joaben!!!
There's no place for women in Freemasonry!!!
And this is not discrimination to our beautiful "flowers", our inspirations, our Best Friends, who are -- Women!
We, just have different duties/jobs!
Freemasonry is comin' from -- ancient MASONS/BUILDERS/CONSTRUCTORS!
Who were carryin' massive stones, builded Temples, etc.
Did you see women workin' on Constructional Objects anywhere?
No. Women in Freemasonry is mistake. IMHO. Of course, maybe I'm wrong.

IF you are happy with what you say ...
Fortunately, women freemasons do not wait your agreement to be freemasons.
In middle ages, listening to same sentences, women had no soul.
Later, black-skin people were considered half-animals.
There have been in the past, always people thinking this way.
And they are still active in islamic fundementalism, djiadists nowadays.
Sorry for you, but in ancient guilds of operative masons, women were there and work as builders.
Some were master of the lodge !
"different duties/jobs" .... Not so far in time, some think that women cannot work in the army, in police and they can manage companies.
In islam fundementalist they are supposed not able to drive a car.
Apparently, you do not understand the word "discrimination" . If you use these criterias at the entrance of the lodge, you discriminate ! That's DEFINITION ! It has nothing to do with beauty, affection, consideration. "I like you but you are not worthy to come in ! Stay outside and play with other women" ...
Doing that, you are out of the ONLY masonic criteria : You do not follow the only principle "How I recognize you as a mason ?" You know the answer ! and that there is no question of sex !
Except the fact that you post vigorously which is not an argument, your position has nothing to do with freemasonery but with societal customs of centuries ago.

 

[Joaben]

You can be as frank as you want and speak your mind as you please but my statement stands unchanged. We do not need to justify our men only rule. If someone is so greatly bothered by that particular landmark they are free to demit and join a co-masonry lodge. If they do not wish to do this but only want to whine and moan about it they can just be ignored.

Sorry for you. The change of your statement depends only on you ! If you want to keep it, I can not don anymore.
Using the same argument, I can tell you : "if you are not happy, bothered with human rights, evolution, you are free to choose countries were the are not active (Iran, North Corea). This not fair, isn't it ?
The dictatorship ("you accept or go away") is typical.
Freemasonery has reformed in the last 3rd century.

 

[Joaben]

My reality is not a problem, nor is your judgments of it a problem. Your judgments though are very telling.
Ah! But you are attacking the "all male only" concept that I belong to and that point is absolutely unnecessary. There are other versions of Freemasonry that offer other options. I have no interest in them.
I don't truly believe you realize how dismissive and disrespectful you are being here.

When you say "barking" about me .... I suppose this your way to respect people ?
Considering someone like a dog ...
You apparently forget that FM inte oldest rituals states that there is ONE PEOPLE of FM on the earth... So, "organisations" have nothing to do with freemasonery, just profane rules.
Apparently "your organisation" and its rules for division and exclusion, are more important for you than freemasonery rules.
Do you mean that choice of "male only" is forbidden to any comment ?

 

[coachn]

...Freemasonery has reformed in the last 3rd century.

Freemasonry was CREATED by a group of men who wanted to have an excuse to get together quarterly to have dinner parties where they could eat, drink, sing, be entertained and have discourse. That plan was discussed in 1716 and implemented in 1717.

 

[coachn]

... By embracing toleration for all men under the fatherhood of God regardless of race or sexual orientation, we can set ourselves above today’s polarized society. That toleration, in turn, will promote harmony and build unity within our lodges. By celebrating our diversity rather than condemning it, our fraternity will grow stronger and attract innovative, exceptional young men to join our ranks as men and Masons for years to come.

Unfortunately, we are not a progressive society. Freemasonry as a whole is being dragged, defiantly and belligerently kicking and screaming into the 20th (not 21st) century; all as a result of lowering our standards. We are no longer the crème de le crème; these issues are a reflection of that.

 

[coachn]

When you say "barking" about me .... I suppose this your way to respect people ?
Considering someone like a dog ...

Your actions are likened to that of a reactive dog; if the collar fits, then take the light it offers and adjust you behavior accordingly.

You apparently forget that FM inte oldest rituals states that there is ONE PEOPLE of FM on the earth...

If I am understanding what you have made effort to communicate through extremely cryptic English, you apparently forget that the ritual you may or may not be referring to is not universal. So forgetting something that is not used in my jurisdiction would be a statement based upon a mistaken assumption on your part.

So, "organisations" have nothing to do with freemasonery, just profane rules.

Recognized Freemasonic Organizations are Freemasonry. They do not teach Masonry. They teach only those things that support the continuation of their organizations. Should you wish to learn Masonry, you'll have to follow the road maps they provide you through their rituals. That's the way it works and has worked from day one.

Apparently "your organisation" and its rules for division and exclusion, are more important for you than freemasonery rules.

The "rules for division and exclusion" that you view as a bad thing, is actually a good thing in my eyes. It separates out with purposeful intent and allows members to enjoy what they seek. The organizational rules are Freemasonic Rules since Freemasonry IS the organization, Masonic rules are an entirely different thing. The sooner you realize this, the faster you will find yourself wanting to get off the high horse you're on.

Do you mean that choice of "male only" is forbidden to any comment ?

No. I mean that condemnation of my choice to join an all male version of the society will be met with a quick dismissal.

You have a huge problem and it has nothing to do with what you claim. You want to attack something because you cannot accept that people want what these organizations offer. You think it is wrong. We get that. You are loud and clear. However, belligerently and obsessively repeating your opinion ad nausea isn't going to change this simple fact: we don't care that you disagree; our participation has nothing to do with your opinion. We like belonging to an all male organization. and don't desire to change this in any way.

 

[Joaben]

Coachn ... your world is very special and arrogant, where you feel allowed to insult others as dogs ... and claim "respect" to you...
I refer about universality on "Emulation working" statded by Book of Constitutions of UGLE.
I have no opinion on rituals where apparently insulting brethren of "dog" is normal practice.
I have nothing to bother about YOUR choice and no power to make you change ! May be you will have to respond in court about homophobic rules but it is something of your justice. Personnally, I hope that your grand Lodge wille be condemned for that.
I just have opinion on organisation stating exclusions and the catastropic display that such practices give to Freemasonery in general.
I unsderstand that you are happy with it, may be even proud.
It's true that english is not my mother tongue but it is not an argument either.
I feel deeply anglo-saxon ! I understand there is a huge difference in mentality between Europ in general and Georgia.
Normally masonic fraternity is a way to weaken these differences.

"Unfortunately, we are not a progressive society." .. How can you say a so anti-masonic sentence ? in total contradiction with the answer to the ritual question : "What are are we doing in lodge" (stated in the oldest rituals !).

"a result of lowering our standards" ... yes! I see ! ... reading you !(sorry ! this is just the dog !).

 

[Joaben]

You have the answer, not coming from "the barking dog" but from the GLUS

The statement by the GLUS about homophobia

 

[coachn]

Coachn ... your world is very special and arrogant, where you feel allowed to insult others as dogs ... and claim "respect" to you...

So, you feel insulted by what I write but have no problem writing insulting things yourself. Isn't that hypocrisy?

I refer about universality on "Emulation working" statded by Book of Constitutions of UGLE.

Any jurisdiction can claim universality, but that does not make what is stated universally claimed.

I have no opinion on rituals where apparently insulting brethren of "dog" is normal practice.

But you have no problem insulting those who do not share you opinion. interesting...

I have nothing to bother about YOUR choice and no power to make you change !

I am so glad that you realize this.

May be you will have to respond in court about homophobic rules but it is something of your justice.

<sigh> I don't think so. Have you not been paying attention? My GL has nothing to do with the GL in question, other than continuing to recognize it.

Personnally, I hope that your grand Lodge wille be condemned for that.

So, you believe my GL will be found guilty, even though it has nothing to do with what you claim and it is another GL that you are speaking of? Guilt by association? You sure do have a problem keeping things on track and focused.

I just have opinion on organisation stating exclusions and the catastropic display that such practices give to Freemasonery in general.

Yes. You have made that abundantly clear. But I think it is a bit more than an opinion. It appears to be a problem for you that you cannot accept.

I unsderstand that you are happy with it, may be even proud.

Good. I'm glad that you can understand this.

It's true that english is not my mother tongue ...

Yup, that is clear.

...but it is not an argument either.

Really?

I feel deeply anglo-saxon ! I understand there is a huge difference in mentality between Europ in general and Georgia.

I hope you realize I am not a Georgian. But yes, there is a gap still.

Normally masonic fraternity is a way to weaken these differences.

It is also a way of tolerating those who cannot accept these differences.

"Unfortunately, we are not a progressive society." .. How can you say a so anti-masonic sentence ?

Because, the organization is not progressive. It is clear from its behavior and no amount of lip service shall change the reality that is clear from simple observance.

...in total contradiction with the answer to the ritual question : "What are are we doing in lodge" (stated in the oldest rituals !).

Lip service. You can read a script ad nausea but until you actually follow it, you're not living it.

"a result of lowering our standards" ... yes! I see ! ... reading you !(sorry ! this is just the dog !).

Good Boy!

 

[NY.Light.II]

The dog analogy was a bit much.

Additionally, Europe didn't ban slavery as a whole. The Slavery Abolition Act, prohibiting slavery I'm most of the British empire, was enacted in Westminster in 1834. Greece banned slavery in 1822. France abolished slave trading in 1818, Spain abolished slavery 1811 (with a few colonial exceptions). These are just a few examples that show that slavery was not prohibited at one specific time by one specific edict/law.

 

[Joaben]

Better that accusation :
Have I insulted anyone of "dog" or "barking" ?
I have criticized some practices ...
You apprently do not read ! "Emulation Working" MENTIONS "Universal fraternity" ... and does not pretend to be universal !

You said "But I think ...." Please criticize what I really write, not what "you think" is behind !
You can, of course, decide from your political point of view or desires masonery "not progressive" but I talk about masonic arguments ...
I do not know your GL but as you apparently support GL of Georgia ...

 

[Joaben]

The dog analogy was a bit much.
Additionally, Europe didn't ban slavery as a whole. The Slavery Abolition Act, prohibiting slavery I'm most of the British empire, was enacted in Westminster in 1834. Greece banned slavery in 1822. France abolished slave trading in 1818, Spain abolished slavery 1811 (with a few colonial exceptions). These are just a few examples that show that slavery was not prohibited at one specific time by one specific edict/law.

OK ! What is the argument ?
To be insulted of dog ... does not matter for me ! It just shows the level of the one insulting ! ... and the arrogance !

 

[JJones]

This 'back and forth' is getting out of hand. Please take it to PMs if you feel the need to continue.

 

[coachn]

Better that accusation :
Have I insulted anyone of "dog" or "barking" ? ...

Barking up the wrong tree; chasing the wrong bus -- metaphors! Not insults. Lick your imagined wounds dude and move on.

...I do not know your GL but as you apparently support GL of Georgia

You are mistaken.

Bro. JJones is spot on. I shall say it differently though: Responding to your future posts dealing with your hurt feelings, imagined slights and off-center opinions is a major waste of time. Time to move on.

 

[pointwithinacircle2]

This 'back and forth' is getting out of hand. Please take it to PMs if you feel the need to continue.

Thank you!