UGLE

[coachn]

Indeed, we know it wasn't the start of Freemasonry.

Perhaps not, but the date is darn close to the start of anything that is Recognized today as "Freemasonry".

Things put forth as "connected to" and as "origins of" that occurred prior to the formation of and establishment of this specific Grand Lodge System of Morality conveyance are forced at best, once what Freemasonry does is clearly understood.

Clearly there was a quickening that occurred for Freemasonry prior to this date. However, that quickening should not be confused with what it actually was at birth.

Furthermore, the proclaimed parents on the birth certificate show no continuity with the character and structure of the Organization. Clearly there was a donor involved whose identity was masked and for good reason.

 

[Bloke]

.......Clearly there was a donor involved whose identity was masked and for good reason.

Come on Coach...... you would let that slip by with comment....

Please elaborate..

 

[Bloke]

Oh, and is there a consensus that we need to be looking before 1717 ?

I talk to the public often on Freemasonry. When asked the origins, I respond Freemasonry is old but its origins are lost in the mists of time, but it's widely accepted it grew out of stone masons guilds who started to incorporate philosophy and the allowed non-stone masons to join them, but one thing we can say for sure is that the Modern Grand Lodge system was born in a pub in London in 1717.

 

[coachn]

Come on Coach...... you would let that slip by with comment....

Please elaborate..

Bro., surely you should have no doubt that I have no doubt that Freemasonry as it exists today is theater. It doesn't matter that the Premier Grand Lodge was started by a bunch of Stonecraft associated tavern hopping lodges as a way to have quarterly dinner parties or not. What grew out of that established gathering was Theater with moral purposes that takes its lexicon (words & symbols), props and related lore from stoneworkers. All similarity between them stops there.

Hence, the donor was the stuff of stonecraft, but the mother was clearly a thespian and the offspring is Morally based theater.

 

[Bloke]

.....Hence, the donor was the stuff of stonecraft, but the mother was clearly a thespian and the offspring is Morally based theater.

I think Freemasonry is more than just a morality play. I know you have your own differentiating lexicon (want to type lexiconography but not sure it's a word) but I'm also going to say My Freemasonry has not just ethical elements but also social- it establishes a society of men with not just moral, but also social obligations towards each other. I think to dismiss it all as a theatrical group is to sell it short.

But accepting your definition for a moment, would you say the start of Freemasonry was Morality Plays ?

( and it's interesting i use the word ethics and not just morality, do "ethics" have much of a place in American Freemasonry ? The word is not used in our ritual but clearly is applied in our thinking, especially around Masonic Trials)

 

[Bloke]

.......Clearly there was a donor involved whose identity was masked and for good reason.

Who or what was the donor? Theatre ? Morality Plays ? I'm pretty sure you will not say a biography

 

[coachn]

I think Freemasonry is more than just a morality play. I know you have your own differentiating lexicon (want to type lexiconography but not sure it's a word) but I'm also going to say My Freemasonry has not just ethical elements but also social- it establishes a society of men with not just moral, but also social obligations towards each other. I think to dismiss it all as a theatrical group is to sell it short.

I honor, not dismiss it, by calling it "Theater with a moral purpose". I was clear in stating that. If it were "just a morality play", such the statement and classification would not capture all the rich nuances, tangled associations and background drama of theater. And there is plenty of all of this.

But accepting your definition for a moment, would you say the start of Freemasonry was Morality Plays ?

I don't believe so, although it would be yet another romantic notion that could be hooked on to and that someone could write a best selling Freemasonic book on.

In reality, the start of Freemasonry was when a group of Stonecraft associated tavern hopping lodges got together to have quarterly dinner parties soon realized that dinner theater spotlighting archaic style ritual with twists, turns, allegory, symbolism, metaphor, religion, philosophy and really really old words would be much more fun, exciting and attractive.

All that grew up from that one realization is what we have today, minus of course the dinner theater, singing, drinking, and thought-provoking discourse. My! have things changed a lot in just 300 years.

( and it's interesting i use the word ethics and not just morality, do "ethics" have much of a place in American Freemasonry ?

Absolutely! Morals are personal. Ethics are social. And being such, we as Freemasons pledge to be moral and to follow a code of ethics put forth by the organization.

The word is not used in our ritual but clearly is applied in our thinking, especially around Masonic Trials)

Agreed! It does apply and then some.

 

[coachn]

Who or what was the donor? Theatre ? Morality Plays ? I'm pretty sure you will not say a biography

Theater is fertile ground. All it needs it a seed to grow in it along with the right conditions. In this case, the seed (donor) was a simple idea: Fabricate morality plays mimicking ritualistic style ceremonies using Stonecraft as a backdrop with its lexicon and lore molded to suit the drama.

 

[Bloke]

Theater is fertile ground. All it needs it a seed to grow in it along with the right conditions. In this case, the seed (donor) was a simple idea: Fabricate morality plays mimicking ritualistic style ceremonies using Stonecraft as a backdrop with its lexicon and lore molded to suit the drama.

Thanks Coach. I manage two masonic centres and would have shown thousands through the building. If they ask, I will generally show them the lodge room and characterise it something like this "This room is where our ceremonies take place and is the sole reason this building exists. A good way to think of the lodge room is as a performance space. It has all the tools, the props and furniture we need to perform our ceremonies which can be though of plays..etc etc etc ...."

 

[coachn]

Thanks Coach. I manage two masonic centres and would have shown thousands through the building. If they ask, I will generally show them the lodge room and characterise it something like this "This room is where our ceremonies take place and is the sole reason this building exists. A good way to think of the lodge room is as a performance space. It has all the tools, the props and furniture we need to perform our ceremonies which can be though of plays..etc etc etc ...."

That's awesome. Great way of explaining things to the profane.

BTW - Thanks for all that you do Bro.! What you do is essential!

 

[Bloke]

That's awesome. Great way of explaining things to the profane.

BTW - Thanks for all that you do Bro.! What you do is essential!

Thanks for the thanks

Being a WM really developed my "masonic consciousness" because i realized i had to speak for the lodge. Running lodge tours really hones it to short closed statements
Q. What is Freemasonry?
A. It's the oldest and largest Fraternity in the world.

I got trained/ developed these when we had stands at local fairs, before i became a WM. It's good to have people skilled at it, esp with new members wives, we we're not fluffing around saying "The Order is a system of morality veiled in allegory".

 

[Glen Cook]

Perhaps not, but the date is darn close to the start of anything that is Recognized today as "Freemasonry".

.

Well, we know that Lodge No 1 in Edinburgh made its first speculative Mason in 1634. Kilwinning 0 had been warranting other lodges.

 

[Bloke]

Well, we know that Lodge No 1 in Edinburgh made its first speculative Mason in 1634. Kilwinning 0 had been warranting other lodges.

That's the Ashmore (Ashmole?) or Moray I guess.

 

[Glen Cook]

That's the Ashmore (Ashmole?) or Moray I guess.

Lodge of Mary's Chapel. No 1, Edinburgh. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lodge_of_Edinburgh_(Mary's_Chapel)_No._1

 

[MarkR]

That's the Ashmore (Ashmole?) or Moray I guess.

Moray was made a Mason in 1641 by Mary's Chapel (Lodge of Edinburgh,) Ashmole in 1646 at Warrington, England.

 

[Bloke]

Many thanks Brothers, I would not remember which was which.

 

[coachn]

Well, we know that Lodge No 1 in Edinburgh made its first speculative Mason in 1634.

Okay Bro., let's go through it.

This is conjecture (not speculation in the original sense) based upon unfounded assumptions.

What we know is this:

1. A stonecraft lodge allowed into its membership a man who had no intention of becoming a stonecraft worker.
2. He paid moneys to the lodge to become a member.
3. The lodge benefited by allowing someone into membership to pay for the right to be a member.
4. It is an assumption that this member was anything more than a paying member of the lodge.
5. Assuming that a man who joins a stonecraft lodge is speculative just because he has no intention of doing stonecraft work is just that: an assumption.
6. The practice of allowing non-stonecraft focused men to join as a way of having revenue generation was soon to become a common practice for such lodges.

Other tangential points:

1. The word "Freemason" did not exist until after 1717. (Free_Mason and Free-Mason are not the same as Freemason; although many translators and interpreters assume they are.)
2. Freemasonic Morality plays did not come into existence until after 1717.
3. Speculative Masonry is a well-directed fabricated myth (in the truest sense of the word) that has wrought all forms of unsupported conjecture for nearly 300 years.
4. The romance of Freemasonry, much like many fantasies, is alluring.
5. The reality of Freemasonry is far more benefiting, once the honeymoon is over and the reality of the marriage is realized and embraced for what it actually is.

Kilwinning 0 had been warranting other lodges.

Which was a common practice for stonecraft lodges. That however did not make it a freemasonic grand lodge.

 

[Ressam]

Bro., surely you should have no doubt that I have no doubt that Freemasonry as it exists today is theater. It doesn't matter that the Premier Grand Lodge was started by a bunch of Stonecraft associated tavern hopping lodges as a way to have quarterly dinner parties or not. What grew out of that established gathering was Theater with moral purposes that takes its lexicon (words & symbols), props and related lore from stoneworkers. All similarity between them stops there.

Hence, the donor was the stuff of stonecraft, but the mother was clearly a thespian and the offspring is Morally based theater.

Greetings, Coach!
Can I, please, clarify?
Do I understand correctly by thinkin' that:
One of the purposes of Freemasonry is -- an attempt, to make Member better by -- making kinda "Theatrical Spiritual Exercise"?
Thank You!

 

[Bloke]

Okay Bro., let's go through it.

This is conjecture (not speculation in the original sense) based upon unfounded assumptions.

What we know is this:

1. A stonecraft lodge allowed into its membership a man who had no intention of becoming a stonecraft worker.
2. He paid moneys to the lodge to become a member.
3. The lodge benefited by allowing someone into membership to pay for the right to be a member.
4. It is an assumption that this member was anything more than a paying member of the lodge.
5. Assuming that a man who joins a stonecraft lodge is speculative just because he has no intention of doing stonecraft work is just that: an assumption.
6. The practice of allowing non-stonecraft focused men to join as a way of having revenue generation was soon to become a common practice for such lodges.

1. Freemasonic Morality plays did not come into existence until after 1717.
2. Speculative Masonry is a well-directed fabricated myth (in the truest sense of the word) that has wrought all forms of unsupported conjecture for nearly 300 years.
3. The romance of Freemasonry, much like many fantasies, is alluring.
4. The reality of Freemasonry is far more benefiting, once the honeymoon is over and the reality of the marriage is realized and embraced for what it actually is.

Which was a common practice for stonecraft lodges. That however did not make it a freemasonic grand lodge.

Okay Bro., let's go through it.

This is conjecture (not speculation in the original sense) based upon unfounded assumptions.

What we know is this:

1. A stonecraft lodge allowed into its membership a man who had no intention of becoming a stonecraft worker.
2. He paid moneys to the lodge to become a member.
3. The lodge benefited by allowing someone into membership to pay for the right to be a member.
4. It is an assumption that this member was anything more than a paying member of the lodge.
5. Assuming that a man who joins a stonecraft lodge is speculative just because he has no intention of doing stonecraft work is just that: an assumption.
6. The practice of allowing non-stonecraft focused men to join as a way of having revenue generation was soon to become a common practice for such lodges.

Other tangential points:

1. The word "Freemason" did not exist until after 1717. (Free_Mason and Free-Mason are not the same as Freemason; although many translators and interpreters assume they are.)
2. Freemasonic Morality plays did not come into existence until after 1717.
3. Speculative Masonry is a well-directed fabricated myth (in the truest sense of the word) that has wrought all forms of unsupported conjecture for nearly 300 years.
4. The romance of Freemasonry, much like many fantasies, is alluring.
5. The reality of Freemasonry is far more benefiting, once the honeymoon is over and the reality of the marriage is realized and embraced for what it actually is.

Which was a common practice for stonecraft lodges. That however did not make it a freemasonic grand lodge.

Thanks for taking the time to lay that out coach.

Perhaps better to say "we have no tangible record that Freemasonic Morality plays did not come into existence until after 1717"

 

[dfreybur]

What we know is this:

1. A stonecraft lodge allowed into its membership a man who had no intention of becoming a stonecraft worker.
2. He paid moneys to the lodge to become a member.
3. The lodge benefited by allowing someone into membership to pay for the right to be a member.
4. It is an assumption that this member was anything more than a paying member of the lodge.
5. Assuming that a man who joins a stonecraft lodge is speculative just because he has no intention of doing stonecraft work is just that: an assumption.
6. The practice of allowing non-stonecraft focused men to join as a way of having revenue generation was soon to become a common practice for such.

Blue lodges now use men who go on to appendent bodies as that exact same revenue source. Plus sa change, plus sa meme chose.