What would you like to see changed in the Masonic experience?

[cemab4y]

I really do not see how you can draw such a conclusion. What administrative procedures other than online dues payments are you referring to? And again, have you collected any data from Lodges that have instituted online dues payments or altered/modified other administrative procedures that show that participation increased?

Drawing a conclusion without evidence to support it is not reasoning, it is conjecture.

EDIT: I am not saying that Lodges should not have newsletters, websites, or use social media if they want to, but I have not seen any evidence that they are effective in increasing attendance/participation.

--I am referring to the possibility that modernizing and improving some procedures, may lead to more participation by the membership. Having a print and/or online newsletter, with schedules of lodge activities will make the membership aware of these activities, and for those who are INTERESTED, attendance will increase. This is a reasonable deduction.

I have no hard data. When the GL of Penn. made the option of on-line dues payment available, the membership supported the choice.

If routine matters could be handled in executive session, and the minutes of previous meetings were published on-line, the business portion of stated meetings would conclude more quickly. The "show" part of the meetings would be able to start more quickly, and the meetings would be more interesting. Will this increase participation? I do not know, and I have no data. It is a reasonable deduction though. Many masons have told me that most stated meetings are BORING, and I must agree.

 

[Glen Cook]

We weren't discussing particular individuals' contributions to Freemasonry. Please stay on topic.

 

[coachn]

I must disagree. If you think that by giving members the option of paying dues on-line, is a change in how "Masonry is practiced", then you are wrong. If you think that underwriting a public television program is a change in how "Masonry is practiced" you are wrong here as well. If you think that replacing a print newsletter with an electronic newsletter is a change in how "Masonry is practiced", then you are wrong a third time. If you think that underwriting a public television program is a change in how "Masonry is practiced" you are wrong here as well.

EDUCATIONAL MOMENT: When you say the words "you are wrong" to another Brother, you let the Brother and the world know that you have yet to comprehend that you are attacking the Brother rather than what he is saying. You decrease the possibility of agreeing upon anything with that Brother when you fail to see that the very words you use are an affront to the person you address and not the subject being discussed. It might be a cultural thing on your part so I am letting you know how you come across. Your words are off topic. You fail to realize how far they are off topic and how abusive they come across. You might want to reconsider your word use strategy here and ask yourself if it is producing the results you desire.

BACK TO OUR REGULAR PROGRAM: Regardless, you have shown here that you truly 1) can't stay on topic, 2) can't see how changing a system's processes changes the system itself or 3) can't keep yourself from passing and stating judgments upon another rather than the topic being discussed.

Additionally, you are attempting to reduce the argument to the ridiculous. You have failed here in your efforts. Until you change your methods and your views, I can see that any rational discussion with you shall not occur. When you deliberately change what or how you provide something, you change both the system and ultimately the experience of that system. This applies to what you call "Masonry" (I call it "Freemasonry", but that's a whole different thread). Masonry is a whole. Change any part of that whole, no matter how small you make effort to do so, and you change it. I can tell from your reactions though that you can't see this or have chosen not to. I accept either of these facts about you and do so without any reservation.

I recommend though that when you disagree with someone that you simply disagree with him rather than passing judgment upon someone who obviously holds a different view than that which you hold.

This is nonsense on steroids.

I could not agree more with you... that is, what you have put forth is just that.

Has Masonry sunk to such a low level, that we must rely on the financial support of inactive members, just to keep the doors open?

Brother, it was designed this way in the USA... the (extremely reduced) dues, low degrees costs, bank deposit interest and random donations are what keeps the doors open. So, your assessment of it sinking is incorrect since it has been this way in the USA on purpose and it has done things this way for a very long time.

Please notice that I did not say that you were wrong here. My thoughts as to what you are should have nothing to do with the discussion.

If you believe that lodges should completely ignore the men who are "keeping the doors open", then the Masonry that I have cherished for 33 years, is GONE.

You appear to once again present bizarre imaginings of my view. Arguing absurdities is superfluous.

BTW - The Masonry that you have cherished for 33 years might well exist in your head only. Something to consider.

This comment seems to contradictory to your previous comment. First you say "let it go at that", and then you say "To inform and keep connected is important". What are you saying? Should we let it go at that, and just continue to let the money roll in, or should we inform and keep connected?

Only through your biased eyes. Regardless, based upon all that you have already put forth, you have convinced me that nothing that I try to explain to you along these lines will be understood by you. I shall leave you to your imaginings.

 

[LAMason]

Hmm. Right with you till last clause: Freemason's rewards being internal. It is to your credit you should think so. Many do perceive an external reward of title, gold and jewel.

I understand what you are saying and considered that. For instance, 2 men serving through the Grand Lodge line and becoming Grand Master, one doing so out of an altruistic desire to serve and another out of a vain desire for title, gold, and, jewel. Two very different motivations, one worthy and the other perhaps not so worthy, but in my opinion they are still both internal, but I can see where some would perceive the second as external.

 

[LAMason]

...I have no data. It is a reasonable deduction though....

More likely a fallacy of wishful thinking.

 

[cemab4y]

I am on your frequency. I admire any man who will serve our Craft in the Grand Line. It is hard work, for which you receive no financial reward, and everyone heaps criticism on you. I especially admire any man who will serve the Shrine as potentate of his Shrine center. (I have an uncle was pote of Mt.Sinai Shrine in Vermont). It cost him about $25,000 to serve for one year. I know a man here in North VA who served as pote of Kena Shrine. It cost him a similar amount.

 

[cemab4y]

More likely a fallacy of wishful thinking.

Why do you think this? I have spoken with Masons all over the USA. Many (not all) tell me that stated meetings are boring! Open the lodge, pay the bills, read the sick list, close the lodge , go home. We should not be surprised, that attendance and participation at stated meetings is low.

It follows that if meetings were exciting, and interesting programs were presented, and the mundane business portion was minimized, that meetings just might be less boring. It also follows that members who stay away from stated meetings, because they are boring, just might consider attending again.

Here is how I see it, and I may be totally wrong:

-Most (not all) stated meetings are boring, and members do not get much "value" in attending them.

-IF meetings were more interesting, and members would find value in attendance, the ones who are staying away because meetings are boring, would possibly attend.

I see this, as a reasonable conclusion.

 

[cemab4y]

can't see how changing a system's processes changes the system itself

On this point, you are absolutely correct. I cannot see how giving members the option of paying their dues online, will change the "system" as you call it. I do not see how having an electronic newsletter, will change the ancient landmarks. I do not see how using videos to learn Masonic history, will change the constitution and by-laws of the lodge.

I do not see how holding "rusty nail night", is going to alter the system.

I have examined these ideas thoroughly, and I do not see how making some minor administrative changes will fundamentally alter the basic tenets and traditions and practices of this Craft.

Maybe you can explain it to me, like I am a four year-old. I just cant see it.

 

[cemab4y]

Brother, it was designed this way in the USA... the (extremely reduced) dues, low degrees costs, bank deposit interest and random donations are what keeps the doors open. So, your assessment of it sinking is incorrect since it has been this way in the USA on purpose and it has done things this way for a very long time.

Please notice that I did not say that you were wrong here. My thoughts as to what you are should have nothing to do with the discussion.

How sad! In my home lodge (KY), the membership is (generally) loath to raise dues. Dues at my lodge ($83 per year) have definitely not kept up with inflation.

If my lodge needs a new carpet or waterheater , they will hold a fund raiser.

 

[coachn]

On this point, you are absolutely correct.

Yes. I am compelled by your argument to agree with your assessment.

I cannot see how giving members the option of paying their dues online, will change the "system" as you call it.

I could facetiously tell you what I was told ad nausea by Brothers who have been in the society for decades, "just memorize it and it will all become clear to you with time", but that tired line never worked for me and I suspect you would have the same reaction to it that I did. OR, that tired line, "it's not how we did it in my year".

You are continuously reducing the argument to the point of nonsense. Look at the bigger picture, change has to occur if the society is to maintain, sustain or regain. Anything you do to change what the society currently does changes what it currently does and hence changes its system. If you cannot see this, I am not the one to make this any clearer to you. Please simply accept that we do not see eye to eye and move on.

I do not see how having an electronic newsletter, will change the ancient landmarks.

Argument reduction to the ridiculous is poor discourse. Your statement is nonsense and has nothing to do with the points tendered. The action and what follows are unconnected.

I do not see how using videos to learn Masonic history, will change the constitution and by-laws of the lodge.

Argument reduction to the ridiculous is poor discourse. Your statement is nonsense and has nothing to do with the points tendered. The action and what follows are unconnected.

I do not see how holding "rusty nail night", is going to alter the system.

I do. Enough said.

I have examined these ideas thoroughly,

Perhaps not enough...

...and I do not see how making some minor administrative changes will fundamentally alter the basic tenets and traditions and practices of this Craft.

Perhaps not fundamentally, but it shall never the less alter the Masonic system, even subtlety, and hence the Practice of the Craft.

Maybe you can explain it to me, like I am a four year-old. I just cant see it.

I'd rather simply accept that you cannot see it and move on.

How sad! In my home lodge (KY), the membership is (generally) loath to raise dues. Dues at my lodge ($83 per year) have definitely not kept up with inflation.

If my lodge needs a new carpet or waterheater , they will hold a fund raiser.

Sad indeed. Yet, it is the reality of USA Freemasonic Practice since its system is perfectly designed to get these results continuously!

If you want to change the Freemasonic experience for those who practice it, you have to change what and how things are done. This changes Freemasonry...

Fundamentally? Maybe not, but making a series of small changes add up over time, say, about 300 years or so. Make enough changes over time and you'll eventually be handing out Master's titles to men who have no Mastery whatsoever.

Wouldn't that be sad.

 

[LAMason]

@cembay4

You are trying to “sell” the idea that:

· having an online presence,

· having online dues payments,

· having newsletters (print or online)

will lead to increased interest and attendance by inactive members. I don’t “buy” it, there just isn’t a benefit from them that motivates someone to attend a Lodge meeting. My personal experience which I shared in a prior post concerning newsletters, did not bear out such a conclusion. Although it is anecdotal and consists of only one account, that is more evidence than you have given to support your claim. If you want to persuade others to your point of view you should put out a little effort and gather some evidence to support it.


On the other hand having programs at Lodge meetings that provide “good and wholesome instruction” will produce informative, interesting, and enjoyable meetings that will provide benefits that will, if not immediately then overtime, create interest and motivate some to attend.


Also, just because you consider something to be a “reasonable” deduction/conclusion/inference does not mean it is.

 

[LAMason]

...you'll eventually be handing out Master's titles to men who have no Mastery whatsoever...

Aren't we already doing that?

EDIT: My bad, I totally missed your point, maybe you should have used an emoticon to clue some of us that are a little slow on the uptake.

 

[pointwithinacircle2]

Fundamentally? Maybe not, but making a series of small changes add up over time, say, about 300 years or so. Make enough changes over time and you'll eventually be handing out Master's titles to men who have no Mastery whatsoever.

Wouldn't that be sad.

Now your just trying to make me smile. But to quote Harry Chapin, "It was a sad smile just the same". Substance - Style, Style - Substance. Isn't it sad that Mastery has become so hard to find in the Craft? Sometimes being a Mason is the loneliest thing I do.

 

[coachn]

Aren't we already doing that?

That would mean that Masonry has been fundamentally changed!

 

[coachn]

EDIT: My bad, I totally missed your point, maybe you should have used an emoticon to clue some of us that are a little slow on the uptake.

<snicker>

 

[coachn]

Now your just trying to make me smile. But to quote Harry Chapin, "It was a sad smile just the same". Substance - Style, Style - Substance. Isn't it sad that Mastery has become so hard to find in the Craft? Sometimes being a Mason is the loneliest thing I do.

<sigh> I can relate...

 

[cemab4y]

You are trying to “sell” the idea that:

· having an online presence,

· having online dues payments,

· having newsletters (print or online)

will lead to increased interest and attendance by inactive members.

--I am doing no such thing, Your conclusion is wrong (You yourself are not wrong, just your conclusion). It is natural to deduce that if all lodge members have an awareness of what activities the lodge is pursuing, that members (especially active members), will be more likely to participate.

Having online dues payments, will not increase participation by inactives.

 

[cemab4y]

On the other hand having programs at Lodge meetings that provide “good and wholesome instruction” will produce informative, interesting, and enjoyable meetings that will provide benefits that will, if not immediately then overtime, create interest and motivate some to attend.


Also, just because you consider something to be a “reasonable” deduction/conclusion/inference does not mean it is.

--I have felt for many years, that most (not all) stated meetings are boring and dull. My conversations with masons have found a great deal of concurrence with this feeling. I agree 1000% that if interesting and informative meetings were more prevalent, interest/participation would increase. That is more than a reasonable conclusion, it is borne out by facts and experience!!!

Your statements are right, that my considerations and conclusions do not always meet with reality, sometimes they do, sometimes not. You will never know until you try.

 

[LAMason]

I am doing no such thing…

Having online dues payments, will not increase participation by inactives.

IF administrative procedures can be altered/modified, to accommodate the membership, it follows that participation will increase.

Your words not mine.

… What administrative procedures other than online dues payments are you referring to?...

I asked this question but you did not reply.

…Your statements are right, that my considerations and conclusions do not always meet with reality

 

[cemab4y]

Has Masonry sunk to such a low level, that we must rely on the financial support of inactive members, just to keep the doors open?
Click to expand...
Brother, it was designed this way in the USA... the (extremely reduced) dues, low degrees costs, bank deposit interest and random donations are what keeps the doors open. So, your assessment of it sinking is incorrect since it has been this way in the USA on purpose and it has done things this way for a very long time.

----I do not think I am getting you right. (this does not mean you are wrong, just that I am connecting). Do you really believe that Freemasonry/Masonry in the USA was designed to be financially supported by "(extremely reduced) dues, low degrees costs, bank deposit interest and random donations(sic)"?

And I used the past tense "sunk" not the participle "sinking".

And do you really suggest that Freemasonry in he USA was designed on purpose, to be financially supported in the manner you suggest?

My home lodge is supported by dues (some of course from inactive members), and fund raisers. I may be totally wrong, but I just do not believe that Bowling Green lodge was set up to supported by "(extremely reduced) dues, low degrees costs, bank deposit interest and random donations(sic)".

OF COURSE, I have no hard data, and I do not have access to the articles of incorporation of my lodge. (I am in Kuwait). So don't ask.