What would you like to see changed in the Masonic experience?

[cemab4y]

One more thing, that I would like to see changed. I would like for there to be a fundamental change in attitudes. Masonry, is in trouble. Many masons are not convinced of the fact, but it is a fact. The truth is ugly. The number of members is declining. The age of Masons is increasing. Lodges are closing. In 2013, the Grand Lodge of Texas lost about 10% of their membership.

So many Masons I meet, tell me "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". If you are not going to acknowledge that there is a problem, you will make no effort to find a resolution.

Not everyone on board the Titanic, was convinced that the boat was sinking. It sank, notwithstanding.

"The truth is ugly, so we put our prophets in prison" - Charles Manson

 

[JJones]

The decline is a return to equilibrium. This in itself would not be a problem were it not for the large financial obligations we took upon ourselves when were at our height.

In perceiving the decline as a problem, we have created more problems for ourselves in the hopes of increasing our memberships. There are entire threads dedicated to ODCs and other matters of the sort so I won't delve into that here. The only change Freemasonry needs is a change of mindset. We need to stop trying to take something marvelous and turn it into something mundane to appeal to the masses. Freemasonry isn't for everyone.

Also, there have already been two warnings on this thread that I know of. We are here to discuss the masonic experience, not to attack each other's credibility and tear one another down. This isn't masonic, despite if we agree with one another or not, and has no place between brethren. These forums are no exception. If I see another negative post that I feel is directed towards another member then that'll be the end of this thread.

Please use this thread constructively or not at all.

 

[cemab4y]

The decline is a return to equilibrium. This in itself would not be a problem were it not for the large financial obligations we took upon ourselves when were at our height.

--I agree that there a bunch of old Masonic buildings located in cities, that are in major financial difficulty. Sad.

In perceiving the decline as a problem, we have created more problems for ourselves in the hopes of increasing our memberships.

--The steps that some Grand Lodges have taken, like lowering the age to 18, and ODC's are not working. One Mason complained about the "flood gates being open". It seems to me, that the flood is going OUT.

There are entire threads dedicated to ODCs and other matters of the sort so I won't delve into that here. The only change Freemasonry needs is a change of mindset.

--Are you serious? The ONLY change needed is a change of mindset?


We need to stop trying to take something marvelous and turn it into something mundane to appeal to the masses. Freemasonry isn't for everyone.

--Amen! That is why I am NOT interested in changing Masonry. I cherish the ancient landmarks. Masonry is certainly not for everyone.

Also, there have already been two warnings on this thread that I know of. We are here to discuss the masonic experience, not to attack each other's credibility and tear one another down. This isn't masonic, despite if we agree with one another or not, and has no place between brethren. These forums are no exception. If I see another negative post that I feel is directed towards another member then that'll be the end of this thread.

Please use this thread constructively or not at all.

---I have believed for many years, that there are certain changes that Masonry can undertake, in the administrative and technological sphere, which will benefit the Craft.

 

[coachn]

coachn said: ↑

Such a lecture would only be welcome if meetings were of value to those who would attend. As a whole, they do not have value enough for a return, even if it were to go through a made up degree that is designed to make someone feel good about attending. Such activities have limited appeal. Once you realize it's a theatrical society, you either accept this and joyfully participate OR you go elsewhere realizing you'll never get what you thought you were paying for.

You should see: http://grandlodgeofiowa.org/docs/Ceremonies/RustyNails.pdf

Reaching our inactive members, is a laudable goal.

Yes, but doing so for all the right reasons should be paramount!

If we can get inactives back to lodge, and interested in their Craft, then the Craft will benefit.

Yes, but will the returning members benefit as they want to? You can't expect them to return to activity just because they went through another degree.

Many inactives have sons, grandsons, friends, etc. If we can one inactive member re-energized, it has the potential, to bring others into a knowledge of Freemasonry, and perhaps petitioning.

Ah! So you're not so much interested in having them return as you are in who they could potentially bring with them. Interesting!

I believe also, that we should inquire of our inactive brothers, WHY are you inactive?

That should be obvious.

Is there something lacking in your Masonic experience?

Bingo!

Can you tell us what we need to differently?

Nothing, other than being honest with what is truly offered.

If we can find our the WHY, then maybe we can also determine HOW to make an inactive Mason, active again!

Perhaps your pursuit is the wrong one. Perhaps the goal is to raise men and then send them out into the world, never to return.

If anyone thinks that Freemasonry is a theatrical society, they are mistaken.

I can easily say that when someone thinks that Freemasonry is NOT a theatrical society, they are deluded. ;-)

 

[cemab4y]

Yes, but doing so for all the right reasons should be paramount!

--What are the "right" reasons? I should think that bringing inactive masons, back into more participation should be a laudable reason in itself.



Yes, but will the returning members benefit as they want to?

--This is going to vary with the individual.


You can't expect them to return to activity just because they went through another degree.

--The "rusty nail" is a FUN degree, not a real operative degree of Freemasonry. Will an inactive Mason return to more participation due to one humorous experience in lodge? NO. I see it as part of a "holistic" approach, if a man is presented with reasons, and programs, and enjoyment and value, he will be more likely to wish to participate in his lodge. VALUE is what it is all about.



Ah! So you're not so much interested in having them return as you are in who they could potentially bring with them. Interesting!

--I see BOTH objectives as laudable and worthy. In the past, the sons of Masons, and the families and friends of Masons were much more likely to petition, than someone who was "cold", and had no Masons in his "circle".

"Anyone can count the seeds in an apple. Only God can count the apples in a seed"- unknown



That should be obvious.



Bingo!



Nothing, other than being honest with what is truly offered.



Perhaps your pursuit is the wrong one. Perhaps the goal is to raise men and then send them out into the world, never to return.

--I do not see it that way. Sadly, this is what is happening! Masonry is losing more membership to demits, and resignations, than to deaths! Men join up and then are "cast adrift". They lose interest, and leave.



I can easily say that when someone thinks that Freemasonry is NOT a theatrical society, they are deluded. ;-)

--After 33 years in the Craft, I do not think that our Craft is a theatrical society.

 

[crono782]

As I have said in other threads, the decline in numbers is regrettable in some aspects, but I do not see it as necessarily a bad thing. I'd take less Freemasons over more members any day.

While it undoubtedly took many stones to erect the Temple, they were all required to be good and square work.

 

[MRichard]

It is not without precedent, that a legislative act could occur, without the knowledge of the Grand Lodge. The bizarre situation in Arkansas is one example:

[URL]http://freemasoninformation.com/2010/03/grand-masters-ruling-hurtful/[/URL]

Arkansas got masonic license plates, and the GL of Ark, was completely in the dark! Now, if an Arkansas Mason purchases a plate, and displays one, he will be expelled from Masonry.

I doubt that they were completely in the dark as it takes a long time to get a specialty plate. The funds going to a Prince Hall charity was the bigger issue and the fact that Prince Hall started the process and saw it through. Throw in the fact that they don't even recognize Prince Hall and now the picture becomes a bit clearer.

 

[dalinkou]

LOL! I can SO relate! I asked just once and got back: Bro. Nagy, we don't need no masonic education books being written. We have all the masonic education materials we need.

That was just before I release Building Hiram (Volume 1 of 9 of the Uncommon Masonic Education Series). I never looked back!

"We don't need no..." indicates a desperate need for books.

I am going to get around to your series as soon as time permits.

 

[coachn]

"We don't need no..." indicates a desperate need for books.

I am going to get around to your series as soon as time permits.

Yup. When I heard it I knew exactly why my efforts were needed, even though the individual who made the statement would never benefit directly. I knew too that this was a change effort that would benefit the Society as a whole.

 

[coachn]

That is why I am NOT interested in changing Masonry.

Yet, you post a thread entitled "what would you like to see changed in the masonic experience"? You must change what occurs in meetings if you're to keep the interest of those returning members. You yourself said this in this thread. Your words are conflicting.

I cherish the ancient landmarks. Masonry is certainly not for everyone.

Yet, you wish to drag members, very satisfied with being dues payers only, back into meetings without first changing the very thing that caused them to stay away?

---I have believed for many years, that there are certain changes that Masonry can undertake, in the administrative and technological sphere, which will benefit the Craft.

Case in point: These are changes, that you are recommending to Masonry, as you practice it.

--What are the "right" reasons? I should think that bringing inactive masons, back into more participation should be a laudable reason in itself.

There are many, but the goal should never be to bring inactive members back into activities that will not nurture them and, by participation, deplete them. Mere participation is not a laudable reason in itself AND inactive members not only know this, they vote with their feet accordingly.

COACH: Yes, but will the returning members benefit as they want to?

--This is going to vary with the individual.

This is an obviously dismissive response to the question. A better response is: What did the inactive members expect and what did they get? Will returning provide more of the same? If what "is" doesn't need to change, then the response to the unchanging system SHOULD remain the same for it depletes and doesn't benefit.

COACH: You can't expect them to return to activity just because they went through another degree.

--The "rusty nail" is a FUN degree, not a real operative degree of Freemasonry.

As are all the other degrees, as in, fun and not real operative degrees. This should be obvious to anyone who has been a mason for even a short time.

Will an inactive Mason return to more participation due to one humorous experience in lodge? NO.

Good. I am glad that you do not see this as THE solution.

I see it as part of a "holistic" approach, if a man is presented with reasons, and programs, and enjoyment and value, he will be more likely to wish to participate in his lodge. VALUE is what it is all about.

But I thought you said:

That is why I am NOT interested in changing Masonry.

Coach: Perhaps your pursuit is the wrong one. Perhaps the goal is to raise men and then send them out into the world, never to return.

--I do not see it that way. Sadly, this is what is happening! Masonry is losing more membership to demits, and resignations, than to deaths! Men join up and then are "cast adrift". They lose interest, and leave.

That's because the system, that you claim doesn't need changing, provokes these responses.

COACH: I can easily say that when someone thinks that Freemasonry is NOT a theatrical society, they are deluded. ;-)

--After 33 years in the Craft, I do not think that our Craft is a theatrical society.

Your view would change should you earnestly examined what is clearly hidden in plain sight before you. Well, that and being open to seeing things differently than you currently do. This would be necessary for something to change in your masonic experience. Have you considered the possibility that not seeing the society for what it is could be a problem in trying to make it better, even without changing it?

 

[LAMason]

Others have mentioned that Freemasonry should stop trying to be something that it isn't, along those same lines:

“Within Freemasonry there is a tendency to embellish and add to the simplicity of masonic teachings, ascribing significance where none was intended; mistaking visual mnemonics or artistic licence for symbolic depth.”

http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/symbolism/compasses/index.html

 

[cemab4y]

Yet, you post a thread entitled "what would you like to see changed in the masonic experience"? You must change what occurs in meetings if you're to keep the interest of those returning members. You yourself said this in this thread. Your words are conflicting.


==Title of the thread: "what would you like to see changed in the masonic experience"?

My repeated statement : That is why I am NOT interested in changing Masonry.

There is one word in the thread title, that is very important. This word is obvious. I cherish the ancient landmarks and the rituals and traditions of the Craft. I have no wish at all to alter the basic foundations of Freemasonry.




Yet, you wish to drag members, very satisfied with being dues payers only, back into meetings without first changing the very thing that caused them to stay away?

==Not at all. I have no wish at all to "drag" anyone anywhere. There are some people who choose to be "dues payers". Retired Masons who live in Florida, but belong to a New Jersey lodge, for example. Masons like myself, who belong to a lodge in one state, but reside out of state.

And you are putting proverbial cart before the horse. As I stated previously, inactive Masons need to be "interviewed" , to determine WHY they are inactive. Then it can be determined, HOW to encourage them to be active again.

Inactive Masons can be invited to a "rusty nail night". The fun degree can be performed. AND, the inactives can be interviewed and/or be given an anonymous survey. The information can be used to possibly modify the Masonic experience, and then these men could possibly become active again. The rusty nail night, is a "two-way street". Maybe the inactive man is just unaware of what the lodge is up to. Since print newsletters are obsolete (my lodge has not had one for many years), and not all lodges have an on-line newsletter, the inactive man may not know what sort of programs the lodge is conducting, and he may just be unaware.



Case in point: These are changes, that you are recommending to Masonry, as you practice it.

==Not at all. See the title of this thread. I am not interested at all in changing MASONRY.



There are many, but the goal should never be to bring inactive members back into activities that will not nurture them and, by participation, deplete them. Mere participation is not a laudable reason in itself AND inactive members not only know this, they vote with their feet accordingly.

==There is no reason to bring an inactive Mason back into your lodge meetings, if all he is going to do, is become inactive again. The Masonic experience, must provide value to the man, or he will spend lodge nights at home watching cable TV.


This is an obviously dismissive response to the question. A better response is: What did the inactive members expect and what did they get? Will returning provide more of the same? If what "is" doesn't need to change, then the response to the unchanging system SHOULD remain the same for it depletes and doesn't benefit.

==I find myself in agreement, somewhat. If you invite an inactive man back to your lodge, and you do not LISTEN to why he is inactive, make the appropriate adjustments (if they are feasible, and do not go against your constitution and by-laws, and do not alter the landmarks), then you are wasting everyone's time.



As are all the other degrees, as in, fun and not real operative degrees. This should be obvious to anyone who has been a mason for even a short time.



Good. I am glad that you do not see this as THE solution.



But I thought you said:





That's because the system, that you claim doesn't need changing, provokes these responses.


Your view would change should you earnestly examined what is clearly hidden in plain sight before you. Well, that and being open to seeing things differently than you currently do. This would be necessary for something to change in your masonic experience. Have you considered the possibility that not seeing the society for what it is could be a problem in trying to make it better, even without changing it?

 

[cemab4y]

I see it as part of a "holistic" approach, if a man is presented with reasons, and programs, and enjoyment and value, he will be more likely to wish to participate in his lodge. VALUE is what it is all about.
Click to expand...
But I thought you said:
↑
That is why I am NOT interested in changing Masonry.

==You are correct. I have said many times "I am not interested in changing Masonry". I am not interested in changing the ritual, landmarks, traditions, etc. not at all. I am not interested in changing the Grand Lodge structures, and other such bedrocks of the Craft. I am interested in changing the EXPERIENCE. Many people overlook the fact, that we can have more interesting meetings, and still keep the rituals and landmarks. We can have degree work on Saturday mornings, to accommodate men who cannot attend in the evenings. We can organize more daylight lodges.

--I do not see it that way. Sadly, this is what is happening! Masonry is losing more membership to demits, and resignations, than to deaths! Men join up and then are "cast adrift". They lose interest, and leave.
Click to expand...
That's because the system, that you claim doesn't need changing, provokes these responses.

--You are not correct here, and you are missing the point entirely. I believe sincerely, that the Masonic experience can be changed and modernized, and we can stay true to our traditions and "roots".

Your view would change should you earnestly examined what is clearly hidden in plain sight before you. Well, that and being open to seeing things differently than you currently do. This would be necessary for something to change in your masonic experience. Have you considered the possibility that not seeing the society for what it is could be a problem in trying to make it better, even without changing it?

I have been a Mason for 33 years. I have belonged to five(5) lodges. If you believe that Masonry is a "theatrical society", that is your right. I do not see this.

I am seeing the Craft for exactly what it is (and the appendants). And it seems to that "trying to make it better, even without changing it" is antithetical and contradictory. You cannot improve nor modernize anything, without change.

 

[Brother_Steve]

more table lodges.

IF I ever make the east I will be doing one out of two meetings a month as a table lodge. I'm going to also suggest the incoming master do same.

 

[cemab4y]

more table lodges.

IF I ever make the east I will be doing one out of two meetings a month as a table lodge. I'm going to also suggest the incoming master do same.

-Great Idea! I never even heard of a "table lodge", until I went to Saudi Arabia in 1991. I was informed that these are very popular in England. This is a custom, which USA lodges can emulate. Keep it up!

 

[JJones]

more table lodges.

IF I ever make the east I will be doing one out of two meetings a month as a table lodge. I'm going to also suggest the incoming master do same.

Unfortunately our GL doesn't seem to know how they feel about table lodges. They haven't flat out told us that we couldn't use them, however we don't really have an 'accepted' ritual for it either.

 

[coachn]

I see it as part of a "holistic" approach, if a man is presented with reasons, and programs, and enjoyment and value, he will be more likely to wish to participate in his lodge. VALUE is what it is all about.
Click to expand...
But I thought you said:
↑
That is why I am NOT interested in changing Masonry.

==You are correct. I have said many times "I am not interested in changing Masonry". I am not interested in changing the ritual, landmarks, traditions, etc. not at all. I am not interested in changing the Grand Lodge structures, and other such bedrocks of the Craft. I am interested in changing the EXPERIENCE. Many people overlook the fact, that we can have more interesting meetings, and still keep the rituals and landmarks. We can have degree work on Saturday mornings, to accommodate men who cannot attend in the evenings. We can organize more daylight lodges.

Perhaps you do not want to acknowledge it as a change to masonry, BUT to change the experience, you must change what is offered or at least HOW it is offered. Either in itself is a change.

--I do not see it that way. Sadly, this is what is happening! Masonry is losing more membership to demits, and resignations, than to deaths! Men join up and then are "cast adrift". They lose interest, and leave.
Click to expand...
That's because the system, that you claim doesn't need changing, provokes these responses.

--You are not correct here, and you are missing the point entirely. I believe sincerely, that the Masonic experience can be changed and modernized, and we can stay true to our traditions and "roots".

I might not be correct by your way of thinking, but it is not by your way of thinking that I am understanding the situation and hence, you are missing the point that I have gotten entirely, which appears to have escaped you. ;-)

To change the Masonic Experience, something must change in the Masonry that is practiced for if it keeps doing what it is doing, it shall continue to get the results it is getting.

Your view would change should you earnestly examined what is clearly hidden in plain sight before you. Well, that and being open to seeing things differently than you currently do. This would be necessary for something to change in your masonic experience. Have you considered the possibility that not seeing the society for what it is could be a problem in trying to make it better, even without changing it?

I have been a Mason for 33 years. I have belonged to five(5) lodges. If you believe that Masonry is a "theatrical society", that is your right. I do not see this.

Yes, that is clear.

I am seeing the Craft for exactly what it is (and the appendants). And it seems to that "trying to make it better, even without changing it" is antithetical and contradictory. You cannot improve nor modernize anything, without change.

...but you are against change anything? Very confusing you are.

 

[crono782]

Unfortunately our GL doesn't seem to know how they feel about table lodges. They haven't flat out told us that we couldn't use them, however we don't really have an 'accepted' ritual for it either.

I was actually not in favor of the proposed table lodge legislation. I felt that it would have muddied the distinction between table lodge and festive board thereby making festive boards more difficult to have.

 

[cemab4y]

Perhaps you do not want to acknowledge it as a change to masonry, BUT to change the experience, you must change what is offered or at least HOW it is offered. Either in itself is a change.

--My definition of change, and yours differ somewhat. I cannot stress too strongly, that I am NOT interested in changing the traditions, ritual, constitutions, landmarks,etc. BUT I am very interested in changing and modernizing the administrative methods, and some of the methodologies of doing things. I am also keen on reviving some of our cherished traditions, like more services to our widows. and our Masonic employment bureaus. My definition of "change" is somewhat elastic.

I might not be correct by your way of thinking, but it is not by your way of thinking that I am understanding the situation and hence, you are missing the point that I have gotten entirely, which appears to have escaped you. ;-)

To change the Masonic Experience, something must change in the Masonry that is practiced for if it keeps doing what it is doing, it shall continue to get the results it is getting.

--If there is some point I am missing, maybe you can identify it. As to changing the experience: Phasing out print newsletters and replacing them with on-line, will not change Masonry. Bringing in more daylight lodges, is not going to alter the landmarks.

but you are against change anything? Very confusing you are.

If you are confused, here it is again:

We can update and modernize our administrative procedures, and still keep true to our roots.

We can have degree work on Saturday mornings, to accommodate men who cannot attend at night. AND not alter the ritual.

We can have more family-oriented activities, and NOT change the landmarks.

We can pay dues on line, and NOT alter the Grand Lodge structure.

We can have more daylight lodges to accommodate older brothers, and shift workers.

We can have more "open houses", and still keep true to our traditions.

Adapting to new technologies, and adjusting the meetings schedule, is more of an "Adaptation" than a "change"

[

 

[LAMason]