2010 Annual Communication Resolutions Disscussion

[JEbeling]

I am curious about the vote against #1... ! now to date we are loosing 33% of the EA's that we put the degree on...? with the membership at its lowest point in years we seem to take the attitude that if I did it everybody should be able to do it..? with this membership effect on the Shrine and others that depend on pool of members are they going to start taking non-masons just to keep alive...? no other state has as much for the EA to learn... ! does that make us better masons... ? or does it just allow in the ones the committee on Hope and Change wants in...? why are Texas Masons so hard headed that we can't change.. ? or is because most of our Grand Masters were on the committee on hope and change...? are we just wanting big lodges in the cities and hope the little lodges in small towns go away...? seems to be.. ! because we are they are closing .. ! and a lot to do with the dictation for the Grand Lodge about jumping thru the hoops on being master of a lodge...? most would rather give it up than play the game...?

 

[Bill Lins]

Cheapening & lowering our standards is not the way to increase & improve our Fraternity.

 

[Blake Bowden]

What is posted is a abbreviated version of the whole resolution submited. Grand Lodge only included the primary portion of it and not the entire wording kinda like the way Brother Lins posted then entire resolution for #21. Each one has a resolution attached.

The Grand Lodge should post each resolution in full form!!

 

[Dave in Waco]

Cheapening & lowering our standards is not the way to increase & improve our Fraternity.

EXACTLY!! Lowering the bar only increases quanity at that cost of quality. Plus gutting the EA degree runs counter to improving Masonic Education.

 

[MacFie]

Well, coming from someone who has just finished his EA and FC proficiencies is the last few weeks, that I was quite proud of myself for having done so. It also gave me valuable time working with a well educated mentor in our Lodge. If EA's are dropping out they either aren't trying, or there might not be enough of an outreach being made towards them to even learn the work, which I believe we were discussing on another thread briefly.

 

[JEbeling]

Cheapening and lowering our standard... ! does that meen that all other Grand Lodges are Cheap and low class because they don't know the second and third section of the EA.. ! or does it meen that those know all the work are better mason then that those who don't.. ? or does it meen that masonary is just about the second and third of the EA and all other leasons meen nothing.. ? what is so important about those few questions and answers that we are willing to risk everything on them... ! its like some kind of do or die.. ? like in England were they have the defender of the faith... ! don't understand this influence of the committee on hope and change.. ?

 

[Dave in Waco]

Cheapening and lowering our standard... ! does that meen that all other Grand Lodges are Cheap and low class because they don't know the second and third section of the EA.. ! or does it meen that those know all the work are better mason then that those who don't.. ? or does it meen that masonary is just about the second and third of the EA and all other leasons meen nothing.. ? what is so important about those few questions and answers that we are willing to risk everything on them... ! its like some kind of do or die.. ? like in England were they have the defender of the faith... ! don't understand this influence of the committee on hope and change.. ?

Other jurisdiction's work is not the same as ours. Some are longer. Some requries additional sections on their other degrees. So we have kind of an apple/oranges thing comparing our work to theirs. And I do think the 2nd and 3rd parts of the EA are important. We already leave out so much of our symbolism. And in England, it takes years to move from EA to FC. They already look at some of our work as being cheapened. They also have membership in their lodges in the well into the hundreds and have 70-80% attendance at meetings, plus their dues are in the $100's if not over $1,000. So yes, every little thing we take away to lessen the barrier cheapens us just that much more.

Remember Masonry isn't just about getting as many guys as we can to join Lodge, it's about getting men that want to be in Lodge and do what is necessary to make the Lodge successful.

 

[JEbeling]

correction... ! no other Grand Jurisdiction work is longer in the EA degree... ! others have time periods that have nothing to do with the work.. ! so you only want the high dollar big city lodges and let the small town lodges go .. ! because they are just too low class and don't do the work as well as the big city lodges.. ! and this is what masonary is about to you is the 2nd and 3rd sections of the EA... ! nothing else meens anything.. ! in fact those brothern who don't come to lodge everytime the door is opened should not be allowed to stay in masonary... ! if we have a 1000.00 per year would keep all the low lifes out of masonary... ! and the purpose of the work is not to teach but to put barrier in front of the EA ... ! just to see if he can climb over them... ? Remember Masonry, thruout history has been about men who become masons and may never walk back into their home lodges but live the life of a mason... ! They traveled all over the world and were masons... ! didn't just hang around the front door griping about all those who were not there.. !

 

[HKTidwell]

Not sure if anybody has ever read this Knights of the North - Laudable Pursuit. It is a interesting read about building a lodge up and not cheapening the experiance.

 

[owls84]

Brother Ebeling, I know you are a voting member of the Grand Lodge. Do you plan on voicing statistics to the Past Masters and dignitaries when this is brought up.

The reason I ask is you seem to have brought up many points that all show in favor of the resolution and you know as well as I do where the Grand Lodge COW will stand on this issue.

 

[JEbeling]

Yes... ! have been tiler at the grand east for 20+ years, am a past DDGM and a past district instructor ... ! I just believe we have to do something... ! we can't sit and die on the vine... ! rather than a band of brother masons we have turn into a group ( or click ) of brothern who want to set themself apart from others .. ?

I think it is critical that we get our membership count up or the Shrine, etc will just die away and all their good works will just go by the wayside.. ! good masons are not always rituralist ... ! I know good masons who spend hours a week working with the Scottish Rite and Shrine and donate millions of dollars but don't attend blue lodge... ! do we just exclude them..? think it's kind of short sided..?

 

[Dave in Waco]

correction... ! no other Grand Jurisdiction work is longer in the EA degree... ! others have time periods that have nothing to do with the work.. ! so you only want the high dollar big city lodges and let the small town lodges go .. ! because they are just too low class and don't do the work as well as the big city lodges.. ! and this is what masonary is about to you is the 2nd and 3rd sections of the EA... ! nothing else meens anything.. ! in fact those brothern who don't come to lodge everytime the door is opened should not be allowed to stay in masonary... ! if we have a 1000.00 per year would keep all the low lifes out of masonary... ! and the purpose of the work is not to teach but to put barrier in front of the EA ... ! just to see if he can climb over them... ? Remember Masonry, thruout history has been about men who become masons and may never walk back into their home lodges but live the life of a mason... ! They traveled all over the world and were masons... ! didn't just hang around the front door griping about all those who were not there.. !

Brother, I hope that when you state your case at GL you do so with more respect then you have afforded me here.

I would continue to debate my point with you but I see that it is impossible to illustrate a point to a blind man who doesn't want to see and has to be right rather then get it right. Unfortunately, you are wrong in your logic and even more off by the words you put in my mouth as my opinions.

Good day brother, I hope next time we talk, you remember how to treat a brother.

 

[JEbeling]

Sorry Dave.. ! but the debate is about res #1... ! and I just don't understand why the attitude of those who seem to want to be the defender of the work..? nobody said it can't be taught just that all that needs to be turned in is just the first section..? have a great day brother Dave.. !

 

[Bill Lins]

The Grand Lodge should post each resolution in full form!!

GL will send out booklets to the Lodges with the full wording of each proposal in about a month or so. Remember, though, the proposals can and often are amended during GL and, sometimes, the final form bears no resemblance to the original proposal. Keeps things interesting! ;-)

 

[rhitland]

Cheapening and lowering our standard... ! does that meen that all other Grand Lodges are Cheap and low class because they don't know the second and third section of the EA.. ! or does it meen that those know all the work are better mason then that those who don't.. ? or does it meen that masonary is just about the second and third of the EA and all other leasons meen nothing.. ? what is so important about those few questions and answers that we are willing to risk everything on them... ! its like some kind of do or die.. ? like in England were they have the defender of the faith... ! don't understand this influence of the committee on hope and change.. ?

Show me results where lessening of the memory work has increased membership in any Grand Jurisdiction in the USA? I have not seen the numbers this year but last I checked I believe 2 or 3 states had positive numbers in membership growth and MA was the only one out of the single digits with 400+. Just saying we need to research what works and what does not. If you can show how lessening the memory work will improve membership I would vote for it but as of now those sections are what the candidate and I enjoy the most about the EA Q&A so I want to keep'em.

 

[MacFie]

Well, I'll cut it short, but the memory work, and older 'Masonic' brothers helping me out with it, is more than slightly impressive.

 

[Bill Lins]

Show me results where lessening of the memory work has increased membership in any Grand Jurisdiction in the USA?

PGM Tommy Griffin was tasked with studying that question a few years back & found NO difference in petitions, retention, or advancement between us & those jurisdictions that had lessened their requirements.

 

[Blake Bowden]

...!, are you kidding? The 2nd and 3rd sections are BEAUTIFUL!!!!! Why butcher the definition of a Lodge or the explanation of the working tools?

I'll tell you the problem with EA's:

They watched National Treasure and hoped to gain all of our knowledge and secrets at the speed of a twitter update.

The Brethren assigned to investigate the petitioner botched it.

The Lodge they petitioned to offers nothing more than signup sheets for fundraisers.

The meetings they attend are nothing more than bill paying ceremonies.

The Lodge they petitioned was quick to hurrah the petition, vote them in, slap the EA degree on...after that..eh..not so much.

I blame lackluster Lodges, not disgruntled EA's.

 

[Dave in Waco]

Sorry Dave.. ! but the debate is about res #1... ! and I just don't understand why the attitude of those who seem to want to be the defender of the work..? nobody said it can't be taught just that all that needs to be turned in is just the first section..? have a great day brother Dave.. !

I have no problem with the debate and I respect your opinion on res #1, I just respectfully disagree with it. It's not an attitude with those who defend the work, it's our opinion which we are just as passionate about. I do not see the 2nd and 3rd sections as barriers. I do have to agree with the findings that lessening the work will not improve retention. I also see the opinions of new EA's in my Lodge, here and other places I frequent, and they don't want the work lessoned. But, it's not that we think it should be kept have an attitude of, "We did it, so they have to do it." It's more the new EA's having an attitude of, "They did, so I want to do it too." To most of them, you wouldn't be making it easier, you would be robbing them of part of the experience.

I also agree with Bro. Blake that lackluster Lodges are a big part. I know we have pointed fingers at GL for not providing a better product to us as Masons to justify the raising of per capita. But, I think to be able to point those fingers at GL, we also have to point them at these lackluster Lodges for not providing a better product to their members. As Bro. Blake pointed out, who is going to want to waste valuable hours of their time once a month to attend a bill pay ceremony. Lodges have to give their members a reason to come back.

If a Lodge is active, it will attract and keep good men. It will bring in people who want to be part of something bigger and better then themselves. It will embrace them in the culture of the Lodge and Masonary and better enable them to embody the values of Masonary not only in the Lodge but in there everyday lives. And when it comes down to it, isn't that the first thing we charge every new EA's with doing?

 

[JEbeling]

And Griffin was objective... ! he know what he was going to find before he started.. ! he was going to find what he want to.. !
another "committee on hope and change" member who became Grand Master who only worried about one thing .. ! while the other business of Grand Lodge went to He$$ ... !