Are Mason's allowed to lie

[widows son]

Skip you can read all the Masonic material out there of you want, but it means nothing if you don't go through the degrees, which is 80% of the experience. Reading about masonry doesn't make you a mason

 

[Brent Heilman]

Actually we do, as civil, criminal and Masonic trials make clear. There are many bases upon which judgment occurs, and we all have to know what basis our judgment rests upon before we can claim a proper judgment. Cordially, Skip.

I don't exactly think when widows son said nobody has the right to judge others I don't honestly think he was referring to the judicial system or the Masonic Trial system. I think he was referring more to the passage in the Bible that say "judge not lest ye be judged yourself". JMHO

 

[widows son]

Yes Brent that is what I meant. We have set laws that deal with offenders, but I don't have the right to judge you and vice versa

 

[daddyrich]

So, this Skip isn't even a Freemason? He does seem to speak with some self-imposed authority. Now I will have to read his responses differently. Do you know this for certain?

 

[T.N. Sampson]

Skip your not at mason so how can you speak as one?

Glad to see you've found out that I'm not a Mason. When I discuss Masonry, I use authoritative Masonic documentation as my basis. I assume the GL means what it says, and base my conclusions accordingly.

An what gives you the right to judge anyone? You have no right judging people, but again your religious conviction probably tells you otherwise

Who have I judged? Cordially, Skip.

 

[T.N. Sampson]

I think he was referring more to the passage in the Bible that say "judge not lest ye be judged yourself".

Indeed so, but I believe the quote misapplied, and usually misunderstood. Here's the full quote:

“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. (Matt 7:1-2)

The verse is referring to the hypocrisy of judging someone for doing the same things you yourself have done. It is not a proclamation against all judgment. If it were, how could Jesus talk about false prophets in Matt 7:15 and how they are to be identified? Is that not a judgment? There are many examples of that.

What scripture does warn about is condemnation, which is pretty much reserved to God. But it is real clear that our judgments better be on a sound basis, and that we ourselves better not be guilty of the same act we are judging another for.

Close to home, if judging were prohibited, why do so many Masons participate in candidate balloting? Are you not judging another? Is not the investigating committee tasked to judge the candidate? Does not the Lodge judge how well a man performs his proficiency examination before he is allowed to continue? In fact, we judge all the time; but, as Jesus noted, you best not be hypocritical in your judgments. Cordially, Skip.

 

[T.N. Sampson]

So, this Skip isn't even a Freemason?

Indeed, I am not, have never been, nor have I ever sought to be.

He does seem to speak with some self-imposed authority.

Not really a self-imposed authority, but rather with the authority of GL statements, upon which I base my conclusions.

Now I will have to read his responses differently.

Why? I'd hold me to the same standards you hold any poster on this forum. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Michael Hatley]

Skip, what is your purpose here? I see you have VIP status, and so you have I assume contributed to the site.

You seem like a nice enough fellow, but I do believe we were warned on your arrival that you were a troll on another forum. I like to give men the benefit of the doubt, but I'd like to know your motives, plainly and directly. I nor anyone else mean you any ill will, but understand that the reward for doing charitable works in our community and generally trying our best to be good citizens are broken windows, derisive attitudes, vandalized cars and buildings, suspicion, and passive aggressive trolls that delight in winding us up and wasting the small ammount of time we actually have.

So I'd appreciate your assurance you are not of that lot.

 

[widows son]

As far as I'm concerned skip you statements aren't valid. You clearly have some sort of agenda. You say you site from grand lodge, but there are many grand lodges in the world that control different jurisdictions. I don't usually believe a non mason when they speak about freemasonry simply because they haven't stepped foot in a lodge, gone through the degrees and learned from other brothers. Books will only get you so far. clearly your are one of them. You say you have no desire to become a mason but you emersed yourself in its lore. Jesus and Pat Robertson would be disappointed. You attach your religious opinion to freemasonry, and justify it with some Mumbo jumbo from "GL". You questioned the words in my obligation and you havent even taken one yourself. That offended me the most. Your judgmental and condescending towards others who aren't like minded, and intolerant of other faiths and cultures.

 

[widows son]

Freemasons take ballots because it's a democratic organization, and we don't judge the person, we see where he is at in his life and what he's willing to do for the lodge and the community as a mason. Also masonry doesn't want its name tarnished more than it already is, I'd say it's just being cautious.

 

[T.N. Sampson]

Skip, what is your purpose here?

A fair question. I'm here for the same purpose as you are: to discuss Freemasonry.

I see you have VIP status, and so you have I assume contributed to the site.

It seemed the right thing to do.

I do believe we were warned on your arrival that you were a troll on another forum.

Not really sure in what context a troll is (it ranges from a supernatural being to a bag lady), but I'd hate to be considered one.

I'd like to know your motives, plainly and directly.

How can one know what Masons think if he does not ask them? How can one test his views on Freemasonry if he does not put them out for comment? I have yet to start a thread on my own, but have chipped in where I thought it appropriate, and I'd assume that much about me could be determined from my comments. If you wish to know how I view Freemasonry, I'd suggest you visit Ephesians 5-11 and/or Christian Forums (Unorthodox Theology) and search on my name. You'll find chapter and verse on those web sites. But my presence here is not to proselytize.

So I'd appreciate your assurance you are not of that lot.

I'm not, but let my actions on this site prove or disprove that. It is my intent to live by the site rules and be held to the same standards as everyone else.

Let me say that I take no offense at your questions, and am glad you took the time to state your concerns. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Michael Hatley]

If you wish to know how I view Freemasonry, I'd suggest you visit Ephesians 5-11 and/or Christian Forums (Unorthodox Theology) and search on my name. You'll find chapter and verse on those web sites. But my presence here is not to proselytize.

I did that. I'm amazed, quite frankly. Saddened that you would spend what is obviously a lot of time and intellect on such a cause, but I'm afraid no matter what I say to you will not be convinced to use your time on Earth more productively as you believe yourself to be on some sort of mission.

Brethren, his stated intention is to strike down Freemasonry at every turn, and to convert men from Masonry. Simple as that. The site mentioned are religious crusaders who see us as damned.

Take this into account in your interaction with him. I suggest ignoring his posts outright. If you choose to do otherwise, you will likely only provide him more fuel. If I may say so without offense from the Brethren, he is a more skilled interlocutor than some here and will expend a lot of your energy if you allow him to.

Take my advice and leave him be.

 

[crono782]

Not really sure in what context a troll is (it ranges from a supernatural being to a bag lady), but I'd hate to be considered one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

 

[T.N. Sampson]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

Got it; thanks. Cordially, Skip.

 

[T.N. Sampson]

I don't usually believe a non mason when they speak about freemasonry simply because they haven't stepped foot in a lodge, gone through the degrees and learned from other brothers. Books will only get you so far.

At direct issue is who speaks for Freemasonry. In general, many Masons believe what they will about the craft from their own experiences. Not having such experience, I go to authoritative sources within a jurisdiction, which include: ritual, GL training documentation, commentary from knowledgeable Masons and so forth. My posting on the tenet of Truth, for example, is relevant only if I've quoted the ritual correctly. As ritual is a key source of Masonic doctrine, it can be used to judge just what Freemasonry teaches.

Here's an example. The MN GL makes this statement on their web page:

We are men who believe in a Supreme Being, but may call Him by many names: God, Allah, Yahweh, Jesus, or the Great Spirit. Religious Tolerance has been a hallmark of Masonry from its inception.

Coming as it does from the GL, it is a formal statement or teaching and can be seen as a doctrinal statement. It is binding on MN, but not on any other state. Any MN Mason can be questioned on such statements and he can choose to defend them or express reservations about it, but he cannot claim that the GL doesn't teach it. To some degree, he may be seen as bound by that statement, whether he agrees or not. The SC GL only admitted white candidates until at least 1975, as stated in its Ahiman Rezon of that year. Were all SC Masons in agreement? Or were all racists because they remained in that jurisdiction? A tough question, with no clear answer.

Along the same lines, the MA GL makes this statement:

Invocation – The candidate learns the principal concept that the Lodge operates under the direction and by order of the Supreme Architect of the Universe.

Declaration of Candidate – The candidate acknowledges the principle of trust in God. (Freemasonry in Massachusetts – Member’s Handbook, pg. 41)

A Massachusetts Mason may dispute his own personal view of the statement, but he cannot claim that the GL does not teach it. And the GL can be challenged on its veracity and meaning.

I learned some time ago that what a Mason believes about Masonry is not always what their GL teaches about Masonry. Worse, few Masons seem to bother to read and study such material. This is why I focus on GL materials: they are the prime sources for what Masonry actually is in their jurisdictions.

A parallel exists in religion, most of which have an authority from which their claims are made. If I make a claim about Christianity, it cannot be authoritively based on my personal views. Rather, it must be proven on how well those views are based on black-letter Biblical statements. Similarly, if I want to know what the Catholic Church teaches, I'll look to their Catechism, and not the personal views of my Catholic neighbor, whose views may not be correct. He may be wrong, but the documentation published under the Church's authority certainly is correct and binding.

All that is what I mean by GL literature. Quite simply, those GL documents state what Masonry is within the confines of their jurisdiction, and it's members receive their training based on the contents of that documentation. Thus, I can use such documentation to determine just what Freemasonry teaches and stands for and be on solid ground with my conclusions. Hope all of this explains where I'm coming from on that subject. Cordially, Skip.

 

[daddyrich]

"Indeed, I am not, have never been, nor have I ever sought to be".

Then, you sir, have an unhealthy fascination to immerse yourself in a group of which you want no part. Use your time more wisely, you won't get converts here to whatever your agenda is. And, no, I will not hold you to the same standards as anyone else here. That's my choice. Good luck with whatever it is you do. But, do please, turn your critical eye towards another book you quote from. That's good fun right there.
Obliquely,
Rich

 

[JustinScott]

I say yes if the truth is to much for someone to handle and it will cause problems it is better for them not to know

please lookup "Taquia" and see how you feel after that.

I just did and I'm not on behalf of the Islamic meaning I feel that if the truth will cause harm to ones well being it should not be told. I'm not saying I shouldn't be trusted I wouldn't lie to a brother but like the others said a little white lie isn't punishment for a public execution of hanging.

 

[widows son]

Skip one day when you realize you wasted half of your life trying to take something down because you take what people wrote down in a book 2000 yrs ago as 100% undisputed truth. Im in agreeable with daddyrich, by you wanting to strike me down, I do not hold you at the same standard as anyone else either. I pity your intolerant soul
Widows Son

 

[T.N. Sampson]

Skip one day when you realize you wasted half of your life trying to take something down because you take what people wrote down in a book 2000 yrs ago as 100% undisputed truth. Im in agreeable with daddyrich, by you wanting to strike me down, I do not hold you at the same standard as anyone else either. I pity your intolerant soul
Widows Son

What ever happened to 'judge not?' Cordially, Skip.

 

[daddyrich]

We need to remember Internet Rule #4080, "Do Not Feed the Internet Trolls." Wasted breath, Widows Son. All your very good points are informed because of your belonging to Freemasonry. Our desire for universal tolerance among all peoples rubs against the agenda of others who would prefer a more rigidly dogmatic world.