Books or readings recommended for the “construction of the internal Temple".

Discussion in 'Masonic Education' started by Mark89, Apr 8, 2018.

  1. otherstar

    otherstar Registered User

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    Methinks you and I use a totally different definition of the word "mystical." I've always considered things to be mystical if they are tied to more of a religious type of experience, like an experience of God in Church or at prayer.

    The non-mystical type of experience you described could just as easily be explained in Aristotelian terms: we experience things, and draw inferences from our experiences. We also store our experiences in our memories. Then our mind uses its imaginative powers (not in the sense of creating stories, but in the sense of our minds ability to be resourceful) to combine ideas and create a question. There is nothing mystical about this. This is all just using our rational powers as human beings.

    So cynical.

    So I guess there is no room for normal human inquiry with you, no?

    I still wouldn't call that mystical. Abstractive, insofar as we abstract mathematical ideas from physical things, but not mystical. We may just have to agree to disagree. I think we humans derive all of our knowledge from our senses. Then, we reflect upon that knowledge and combine ideas to form other ideas and arguments. From those arguments, we draw conclusions (in Aristotelian Logic, I've just described the three acts of the intellect: simple apprehension, judgement, and reasoning).

    FWIW, my academic background is Aristotelian/Thomist philosophy (Master's Degree) and I focused on the Philosophy of Nature, Philosophy of Science, and the Philosophy of Mathematics.
     
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  2. JamestheJust

    JamestheJust Registered User

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    What is veiled by "the working tools" is a set of metaphysical instruments that can be used directly in a "moral" sense. They are not hard to use by those that are practiced in technical meditation. The metaphysical instruments have a close relationship to the trade tools named in the ritual as the same laws (regular relationships) apply at all levels of existence (planes) with slight variation based on the nature of energy-substance on each plane and subplane.
     
  3. dfreybur

    dfreybur Premium Member

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    If your experiences of science or mathematics are any less moving than your experiences in an ecstatic celebration at church, then I am saddened at how you have experienced science and mathematics. And vice versa.

    Of course our definitions of mystical differ. Where's the fun in disagreeing. I even know people who define it as the stuff that does not work. I prefer a usage that is useful. And more importantly that is the way it's used by practicing mystics.

    I have encountered plenty of practicing mystics who nod when they read about Newton's numerology and how it can act as strength training for insight. Then they get fidgety when I apply the principle to mathematics. Math is one of the highest forms of mysticism in that view but a lot of people get uncomfortable when they get too close to it.

    And here you are with the opposite. You used the word imagination not noticing the act of creating new knowledge. You got fidgety just like a practicing mystic shown a calculus book.

    There is symmetry.
     
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  4. otherstar

    otherstar Registered User

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    To experience wonder in an intellectual exercise, or to experience joy in worship is NOT the same thing as having a genuine mystical experience. True mystical experiences are quite rare and come after undergoing purification, illumination, and finally unification. In my lifetime, I've never met a person I'd consider a genuine mystic...though I can think of a few who most likely were genuine mystics: Pope St. John Paull II, and the Dalai Lama are on the short list for me.

    Do we really get to choose how to define words, or is truth one or many?

    Like I said above, I don't think there are that many genuine mystics in the world and those who consider themselves to be mystics are probably not really mystics because the real mystics I mentioned would be the last person to refer to themselves as a mystic.
     
  5. CLewey44

    CLewey44 Registered User

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    Methinks you're being a bit of a troll, brother. All I've seen you do is get on here lately and poke, prod and provoke people over the most ridiculous things. This site isn't supposed to be a site in questioning people's grammar usage or their perspective on things in a pretentious, condescending manner. I even saw somewhere here you made it clear your goal was to upset someone on here and bragged about how you succeeded in doing that. For some its all the Masonry they get due to schedules and whatnot. All I'm seeing is negativity going on here.
     
  6. Esso-taricMason

    Esso-taricMason Registered User

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    Center and otherstar like this.
  7. Center

    Center Registered User

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  8. hanzosbm

    hanzosbm Premium Member

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    I personally think that far too many new Masons search externally for answers. No doubt, there is knowledge to be found in many other places, but it seems like many men keep looking on the surface of many different teachings when what they should be doing is digging deeper. Its like a man walking around looking on the ground for precious gems, and, not seeing any, walking on to the next field, and the next, and the next. When, in reality, what he should be doing is spending the time and energy to dig down, in any one of those fields.
     
  9. JamestheJust

    JamestheJust Registered User

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    >far too many new Masons search externally for answers

    In 30 years in Masonry I have hardly ever found brethren that do much inner work.
     
  10. dfreybur

    dfreybur Premium Member

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    Heraclitus - Diggers after gold must dig through much dirt.

    The early philosopher did not mean that literally, though it is also true in a literal sense. The best metaphors do work like that.
     
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  11. Center

    Center Registered User

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    the freemasonry offers a really valid spiritual map to do an inner work of continuous knowledge in my opinion and forming a philosophical lodge where seeking the virtue overweights the mere intellectual exercise is always possible.

    Heraclitus was also condemning the men with a short thought, but a man of the brotherhood is usually really good in thinking because learns from life.

    The point is that I would be quite brave in saying that to switch to an inner work a minimal degree of dogma should be eventually considered some pillars in the rituals, where there is less room for interpretation and more for a clear message of unity and familiarity of intents,an equilibrium. Speaking continuously between members about the rituals, and the lessons learned I think is really important because there are a lot of lessons inside them from my view.
    If not does not matter because the metaphor and awareness to be a raw stone is really powerful and speak itself,
    The stone which the builder rejected has become the chief corner stone.
    So be it
     
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  12. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

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    Define: spiritual
     
  13. JamestheJust

    JamestheJust Registered User

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    Spiritual is what exists beyond the personality. Some personalities are bigger than others.
     
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  14. Center

    Center Registered User

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  15. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

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    Thanks. Shall I gather from your shared link that is implies that your definition of "spiritual" is "knowing yourself" and by default that you are saying freemasonry "offers a really valid map" for "getting to know yourself"?
     
  16. Center

    Center Registered User

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    Really good Coachn you disentangled the conundrum:)

    One of the nice things of the Freemasonry rituals is about the symbols that allow to speak without strong direct assertions. Speaking of Spirituality, God without puzzles to me means to not be really a free man, not ransomed by the prison of the dogma and immodesty.
    This is why I love the idea of a lost word, the negative theology of the gnostics and some neoplatonics
     
  17. Elexir

    Elexir Registered User

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    Wich gnostics? There are diffrencs between the groups...
     
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  18. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

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    So, "yes" then?
     
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  19. Center

    Center Registered User

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    I am referring to the Gnosticism in the most classical way, the Christendom of the origins, where is possible to find several apophatic statements, I would refer to Valentinus, Marcion, the Cainites, but also the thoughts of Philo of Alexandria that although not in the gnosticism tout court brings some really important Jewish-Christian contributions. We could then speak of the Gospel of Thomas and the movement that has really high gnostic insights, then we could go a bit back to some Platonic statements, or further considering gnostic also some neoplatonic teachings from Proclus to the Stoics
     
  20. Center

    Center Registered User

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    when one disentangles a mystery, creates a link, a mystical connection with the name that cannot be named. So the then according to the knowledge of ourselves would be understanding if comes from an intuition or a logic reasoning, maybe a syllogism. And here comes back the dogma again, the knowledge, in the gnostic way, that etymologically is knowledge: Is this dogma a value or an issue? I am afraid I do not have a reply
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2018

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