Chamber of Reflection

[Mindovermatter Ace]

I don’t disagree with your general thought, but am bothered by the use of the words “disdain” and “clandestine” in this instance. I don’t think the practice is clandestine, either in the common use of the term or a a Masonic term of art. Surely disdain isn’t the better word. Perhaps object? Bemused?

Agreed. Perhaps I need to reassess my word usage. You're right. "Disdain," was a poor word of choice. I'm just of the opinion that Scottish Rite traditions should be respected and preserved by authentic and true Scottish Rite lodges and to charter a lodge with absolutely no lineage to the Rite just to appease brothers does a great injustice to those lodges that are true in form. IJS.

Moreover, an Ancient Craft lodge adopting a practice of the Scottish Rite is lawfully clandestine, IMHO. I feel that brothers need to learn the American history of Scottish Rite Craft lodges, and how they fought to preserve their lodges; i.e. The Grand Lodge of Mississippi's invasion and hostile takeover of the French Grand Lodge of Louisiana in 1847; thereby gaining a better understanding and respect for those historical lodges.

 

[LK600]

Agreed. Perhaps I need to reassess my word usage. You're right. "Disdain," was a poor word of choice. I'm just of the opinion that Scottish Rite traditions should be respected and preserved by authentic and true Scottish Rite lodges and to charter a lodge with absolutely no lineage to the Rite just to appease brothers does a great injustice to those lodges that are true in form. IJS.

Moreover, an Ancient Craft lodge adopting a practice of the Scottish Rite is lawfully clandestine, IMHO.

Can you show me documentation where it "belongs" to the Scottish rite? Can you give me something prior to 1762?

 

[Mindovermatter Ace]

Can you show me documentation where it "belongs" to the Scottish rite? Can you give me something prior to 1762?

You can't find the Chamber of Reflection in any form or fashion in Ancient Craft Masonry. There are plenty of references. It's also common knowledge and common sense to know that it was NEVER practiced in Ancient Craft Masonry, because the adoption of it and it's popularity is new and due to new interest in practices of the Scottish Rite. Examine the rituals. You can compare the rituals to see. I'm not going to cite any references to this because there's far too much literature out there to support what I'm saying.

 

[LK600]

You can't find the Chamber of Reflection in any form or fashion in Ancient Craft Masonry. There are plenty of references. It's also common knowledge and common sense to know that it was NEVER practiced in Ancient Craft Masonry, because the adoption of it and it's popularity is new and due to new interest in practices of the Scottish Rite. Examine the rituals. You can compare the rituals to see. I'm not going to cite any references to this because there's far too much literature out there to support what I'm saying.

Then excuse me not having "common sense" but my question is valid, meaning not necessarily intended to be an argument. I have found several avenues, this one copied from the Masonic restoration foundation (originally printed on Jachin and Boaz; An authentic key to the door of freemasonry: 1762. (archive.org), discussing this vary thing,

As I've already advised, i am not trying to suggest your wrong; only trying to locate the truth. And I mean no offense by saying, "because I said so" doesn't work for me.

 

[Mindovermatter Ace]

Then excuse me not having "common sense" but my question is valid, meaning not necessarily intended to be an argument. I have found several avenues, this one copied from the Masonic restoration foundation (originally printed on Jachin and Boaz; An authentic key to the door of freemasonry: 1762. (archive.org), discussing this vary thing,

As I've already advised, i am not trying to suggest your wrong; only trying to locate the truth. And I mean no offense by saying, "because I said so" doesn't work for me.

I meant no offense toward you by saying it's common sense. What I'm saying is that anyone can examine the rituals and see the Chamber of Reflection is NOT a part of Ancient Craft Ritual and never was. You don't have to take my word for it; I never expected you to. If you re-read my comments, you can discern that I implored you to search for yourself. *wink*

 

[hanzosbm]

You can't find the Chamber of Reflection in any form or fashion in Ancient Craft Masonry. There are plenty of references. It's also common knowledge and common sense to know that it was NEVER practiced in Ancient Craft Masonry, because the adoption of it and it's popularity is new and due to new interest in practices of the Scottish Rite. Examine the rituals. You can compare the rituals to see. I'm not going to cite any references to this because there's far too much literature out there to support what I'm saying.

I can find a reference to it being used in 1762 in craft Masonry in a lodge in London under the UGLE (expose title Jachin and Boaz). I'd say that's pretty regular. Do you have something earlier from the Scottish Rite?
As for the argument that it is new, well...obviously not. As for the argument that it isn't widely used, there are a lot of early aspect of craft Masonry that are no longer in common use, that doesn't mean they didn't start there.
As for not citing any references to your claim...well, that's your call, but when I can cite them to the contrary and you can't, don't expect to be taken seriously.

 

[LK600]

I meant no offense toward you by saying it's common sense. What I'm saying is that anyone can examine the rituals and see the Chamber of Reflection is NOT a part of Ancient Craft Ritual and never was. You don't have to take my word for it; I never expected you to. If you re-read my comments, you can discern that I implored you to search for yourself. *wink*

But I did, and found it as stated above. If it's inaccurate... if my understanding is faulty... if I am wrong at all is what I was asking I guess. Thanks you.

 

[CLewey44]

Speaking of V.I.T.R.I.O.L., this forum has become just that it seems.

 

[LK600]

Speaking of V.I.T.R.I.O.L., this forum has become just that it seems.

I can't argue with that Brother.

 

[Glen Cook]

Agreed. Perhaps I need to reassess my word usage. You're right. "Disdain," was a poor word of choice. I'm just of the opinion that Scottish Rite traditions should be respected and preserved by authentic and true Scottish Rite lodges and to charter a lodge with absolutely no lineage to the Rite just to appease brothers does a great injustice to those lodges that are true in form. IJS.

Moreover, an Ancient Craft lodge adopting a practice of the Scottish Rite is lawfully clandestine, IMHO. I feel that brothers need to learn the American history of Scottish Rite Craft lodges, and how they fought to preserve their lodges; i.e. The Grand Lodge of Mississippi's invasion and hostile takeover of the French Grand Lodge of Louisiana in 1847; thereby gaining a better understanding and respect for those historical lodges.

Umm. Lawfully clandestine? Is that not oxymoronic?
I agree that CoR are best left in either AASR or KT.

 

[Warrior1256]

I agree that CoR are best left in either AASR or KT.

I can go along with this.

 

[hanzosbm]

I agree that CoR are best left in either AASR or KT.

Respectively, and possibly naively, I disagree.

Both the exoteric purpose of the COR (allowing a man a moment of mental and spiritual preparation before beginning this journey) and the esoteric ideas (mortality, the nature of the soul, and final judgement) both very much pertain to the EA degree.

And, while I am not a member of either of the aforementioned rites and thus don't understand their context, as the old expression goes, you only get once chance to make a first impression.

 

[LK600]

I can go along with this.

I'm trying to... just cant find anything that supports it yet.

 

[chrmc]

I can find a reference to it being used in 1762 in craft Masonry in a lodge in London under the UGLE (expose title Jachin and Boaz). I'd say that's pretty regular. Do you have something earlier from the Scottish Rite?
As for the argument that it is new, well...obviously not. As for the argument that it isn't widely used, there are a lot of early aspect of craft Masonry that are no longer in common use, that doesn't mean they didn't start there.
As for not citing any references to your claim...well, that's your call, but when I can cite them to the contrary and you can't, don't expect to be taken seriously.

Exactly this. Brother Andrew Hammer has written a good little guide to the history of the COR, and there is plenty of evidence that it existed already in the 1700s as part of Craft Masonry. Both in the English Rites, but certainly also in the Swedish Rite. So saying that there is no evidence earlier, is simply incorrect by the brother from Louisiana.

Saying that they belong to the first degrees of the AASR, shows a lack of understanding of how that rite developed and formed. The rituals we know today and historically, even back to Morin clearly had earlier origins, and there is no evidence, as far as I'm aware that the COR shows up in those rituals as the first place in Masonry.

The main challenge with proving the position of the COR historically is that most of the exposes dealt with the rituals, and what happened inside the lodge. Few touch on how a Mason was prepared, and what happened before the initiations.

 

[chrmc]

You can't find the Chamber of Reflection in any form or fashion in Ancient Craft Masonry. There are plenty of references. It's also common knowledge and common sense to know that it was NEVER practiced in Ancient Craft Masonry, because the adoption of it and it's popularity is new and due to new interest in practices of the Scottish Rite. Examine the rituals. You can compare the rituals to see. I'm not going to cite any references to this because there's far too much literature out there to support what I'm saying.

Brother, I think this is a case where it would be beneficial to cite some references to support your claim. As I read it you state that the COR is new, and that it comes based on interest in the Scottish rite? If that is the case, then there doesn't seem to be that much that supports this notion as far as I can see.

 

[Ripcord22A]

The CoR isn’t even part of the ritual, at least not in NM. It’s just a room with some stuff in it, that the candidate is left prior to be being prepared by the Deacons. Honestly for a candidate that is about to take the EA the stuff means nothing. And his brain is so jelly by the time the degrees over that he won’t remember what was in to begin with......


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[David612]

The CoR isn’t even part of the ritual, at least not in NM. It’s just a room with some stuff in it, that the candidate is left prior to be being prepared by the Deacons. Honestly for a candidate that is about to take the EA the stuff means nothing. And his brain is so jelly by the time the degrees over that he won’t remember what was in to begin with......


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“A Traditional Observance Lodge”
Mentioned this sort of practice, honestly I fully support the idea, of adding these elements brings more zeal to learning and performing the degrees and expands brothers interest it’s a great thing.

 

[Ripcord22A]

“A Traditional Observance Lodge”
Mentioned this sort of practice, honestly I fully support the idea, of adding these elements brings more zeal to learning and performing the degrees and expands brothers interest it’s a great thing.

And my Lodge in NM is THE only TO in NM

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[David612]

And my Lodge in NM is THE only TO in NM

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Great to hear, I have been told we have a similar system I’m told here where a lodge can become accredited as a lodge of excellence however I’m not sure about the process and unfortunately we don’t have one that meets at our temple or the surrounding region.
If modifying the practices leading up to and after the ritual get the results that book reports lodges would have to be stupid to not look at their own practices while continuing to complain about the lack of members, quality work or what have you.
I have handed my copy to my WM/mentor and have told my DGIW he’s getting it next once he’s finished lost keys we always have lots to talk about.

 

[LK600]

The CoR isn’t even part of the ritual, at least not in NM. It’s just a room with some stuff in it, that the candidate is left prior to be being prepared by the Deacons. Honestly for a candidate that is about to take the EA the stuff means nothing. And his brain is so jelly by the time the degrees over that he won’t remember what was in to begin with......


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Agreed Brother. I think this discussion is more academic (The COR began as a Ancient/regular Lodge practice verses it didn't show up until the Scottish rite was formed).

I am finding that while (it appears) the evidence shows it absolutely began in the 1700's in regular Lodge systems, Some American Grand Lodges have sort of an aversion to it. I have seen suggestions of mysticism being put forth of the reasoning. It's rather interesting.