Esoteric Masonry

[coachn]

https://www.linkedin.com/in/ruffashlar

WOW! The man could be his doppelganger! It's amazing how this universe just spits them out.

Thanks!

 

[Bloke]

https://www.linkedin.com/in/ruffashlar

I have an esoteric question....
Is "ruff" short for ruffian ?

 

[usar123]

Well I will say this Kabbalah has a link with Freemasonry due to the fact of “ More Light” there is a lot of YouTube Videos out there to Research on the Subject !

 

[Winter]

Well I will say this Kabbalah has a link with Freemasonry due to the fact of “ More Light” there is a lot of YouTube Videos out there to Research on the Subject !

I'm not sure your argument that the "more Light" from Freemasonry is kaballistic in origin because of YouTube research is as convincing as you think it is. I'm not saying it isn't, Brother. I'm merely saying that citing YouTube, where anyone can upload anything and nothing is checked for veracity, isn't really a source to prop up an argument. Now, if you have a specific video you'd like to put forward that does contain actual citations to the source material showing that it has a link to Freemasnry then I would definitely watch it.

 

[Brother JStoffo]

As it relates to "Esoteric Freemasonry", I enjoyed the additional degrees of the Scottish Rite. Taking the greatest teachings of all of the various religious beliefs throughout the World, one of the many that stood out in my mind was allowing everyone to exercise Freedom of thought. Though I did get a little lost with the posts from Mr. Bevan Jones regarding genealogy, I felt that you guys seemed a little harsh on him. I would like to think that as Masons, this forum remains open to independent thought and welcomes it from all of us with respect and Brotherly love. And even if we disagree, we do not stifle opinions. The personal attacks seemed distasteful especially since they were unprovoked in my opinion. I am searching for places to seek further light in Masonry. I would hope that any Masonic forum is a great place to do this. Are there any Masonic forums that are certified by the Grand Lodge of each State? Perhaps that would be one way to ensure respectful dialogue if not Masonic accountability.

 

[Glen Cook]

As it relates to "Esoteric Freemasonry", I enjoyed the additional degrees of the Scottish Rite. Taking the greatest teachings of all of the various religious beliefs throughout the World, one of the many that stood out in my mind was allowing everyone to exercise Freedom of thought. Though I did get a little lost with the posts from Mr. Bevan Jones regarding genealogy, I felt that you guys seemed a little harsh on him. I would like to think that as Masons, this forum remains open to independent thought and welcomes it from all of us with respect and Brotherly love. And even if we disagree, we do not stifle opinions. The personal attacks seemed distasteful especially since they were unprovoked in my opinion. I am searching for places to seek further light in Masonry. I would hope that any Masonic forum is a great place to do this. Are there any Masonic forums that are certified by the Grand Lodge of each State? Perhaps that would be one way to ensure respectful dialogue if not Masonic accountability.

Opinions are subject to criticism as part of independent thought. If one is not willing to accept that social reality, a blog is the better option.

Please note that we did not reject his views out of hand. He was asked for citations.

Our opinions as to provocation differ as his response to the request was at best dismissive: "Yes, I expect a lot of that sort of response. Tell you what, I may take some time to write up some of my original research this weekend, "original" by definition being completely new research not found elsewhere i.e., no citation list regurgitating the same old content from others. Then folks here can decide for themselves without having to resort to other's academic backup."

The comment drew the appropriate response, in my view.

The response should also be viewed in light of his history.

Yes, there are some social media outlets mediated by grand lodges.

A suggestion: rather than stepping into a group and immediately offering up criticism of a four month old interchange, perhaps get to know us? Perhaps offer up a thought on the subject of esotericism? Or the AASR?

 

[Winter]

As it relates to "Esoteric Freemasonry", I enjoyed the additional degrees of the Scottish Rite. Taking the greatest teachings of all of the various religious beliefs throughout the World, one of the many that stood out in my mind was allowing everyone to exercise Freedom of thought. Though I did get a little lost with the posts from Mr. Bevan Jones regarding genealogy, I felt that you guys seemed a little harsh on him. I would like to think that as Masons, this forum remains open to independent thought and welcomes it from all of us with respect and Brotherly love. And even if we disagree, we do not stifle opinions. The personal attacks seemed distasteful especially since they were unprovoked in my opinion. I am searching for places to seek further light in Masonry. I would hope that any Masonic forum is a great place to do this. Are there any Masonic forums that are certified by the Grand Lodge of each State? Perhaps that would be one way to ensure respectful dialogue if not Masonic accountability.

When Masons come together to explore topics here the discussion is almost always pleasant and respectful. But after years of uncountable cowens who seek to invade our space with crackpot theories some brusqueness can be forgiven.

 

[coachn]

As it relates to "Esoteric Freemasonry", I enjoyed the additional degrees of the Scottish Rite. Taking the greatest teachings of all of the various religious beliefs throughout the World, one of the many that stood out in my mind was allowing everyone to exercise Freedom of thought. Though I did get a little lost with the posts from Mr. Bevan Jones regarding genealogy, I felt that you guys seemed a little harsh on him. I would like to think that as Masons, this forum remains open to independent thought and welcomes it from all of us with respect and Brotherly love. And even if we disagree, we do not stifle opinions. The personal attacks seemed distasteful especially since they were unprovoked in my opinion. I am searching for places to seek further light in Masonry. I would hope that any Masonic forum is a great place to do this. Are there any Masonic forums that are certified by the Grand Lodge of each State? Perhaps that would be one way to ensure respectful dialogue if not Masonic accountability.

Perhaps some examples might better illustrate your claims. Care to share them?

 

[Bevan Jones]

....... The response should also be viewed in light of his history.......

I received an email that there had been a response to my comment on this thread and it appears my login still works. I still don't know how to delete my profile but in the meantime, what is with the character assassination here?

What history is being referred to here? Who is this character that is supposed to be my doppelganger? That it's so amazing "how this universe just spits them out". Thanks coachn, what a lovely thing to say! I've been a Mason in both the UK and South Africa for over 20 years now, and thankfully I've never had the misfortune to sit in lodge with such judgmental characters. Long may my luck continue.

As far as sources are concerned, all my research is my own. That should have been eminently clear, but instead rather than offer opinion on what is being offered, it's easier to tear up any new theory by saying it doesn't comply with existing peer-review and/or other sources.

For me, what comes across clearly are the close links between the English Magna Carta Templars and the later Scots barons that sealed Arbroath. For instance, it's clear (to me at least) that Magna Carta was planned from the Templar's Cressing Temple Barns on Robert FitzWalter's (lead baron of Magna Carta) Little Dunmow estate. All the Magna Carta barons were closely related including de Bohun, de Quincy, de Ros and de Clare, and their immediate descendants also married into the "Black" Douglas and Robert de Brus' family. In fact, the "Black" Douglas, one of the leaders at Bannockburn, was brought up in the French court by his step-mother Eleanor de Lovaine, heiress of Little Dunmow. Some say she might have been "Maid Marion" but that is taking things a little too far, even for me.

The "Black" Douglas is also William St. Clair's (builder of Rosslyn Chapel) maternal great-grandfather. Does this prove descent of the Templars to Rosslyn Chapel, from where St. Clair's daughters and the Atholl "Black knight" of Lorn's son would go on to sire the royal family and every grand master of Scots, Antient and Premier Lodge Freemasonry? No, it doesn't. But it sure is interesting. And once again, these ancestries are all very much public knowledge, being well-known figures, and having been proved time and again in various charters. I can find no citations for the links I've worked on because no-one I know of has actually done the massively time-consuming work of connecting the extensive relationships in all the various trees. The link to the tree I had provided was thus a huge gift in terms of saving time. And although I used the Geni world tree to assist, I cross-referenced everything with Medlands and Burke's Peerage as well. If you suspect my work was fraudulent then you are welcome to follow the links and prove them for yourself too. I had nothing to gain by creating false links.

Anyway, I'm done but at the end of the day, for me the most interesting aspect to consider is that the Templars, while initially diggers (1118-1128), crusading soldiers and bankers (1128-1291), and then administrators in Cyprus (1291-1307), also absorbed much esoteric knowledge from eastern mysticism. We know they helped to bring the practical aspects back to Europe (chess, architecture etc.) but they also encountered the more mystical aspects, and "alchemy" as we know was first an eastern mystic concept. Then, Wolfram's tale of Parzifal tells us how the "grail" moved from France and Flanders to Germany and Scotland, two nations where the Reformation would later emerge. That same spirit also emerged in Abroath, the US Declaration of Independence and the French Revolution. It is that flame of liberty, egality and fraternity that I believe Freemasonry inherited and should continue to uphold.

For in a world where power-hungry, egotistical politicians and rulers seek ever more control over our personal lives, our freedom is sacrosanct, and "as long as a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be subjected to the lordship of the English [or kings or popes or the 'elite']. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself". In that regard, I wish you all your own personal sovereignty and success in doing the work that is yours to do. Laborare est Orare.

 

[coachn]

I received an email that there had been a response to my comment on this thread and it appears my login still works. I still don't know how to delete my profile but in the meantime, what is with the character assassination here?

What history is being referred to here? Who is this character that is supposed to be my doppelganger? That it's so amazing "how this universe just spits them out". Thanks coachn, what a lovely thing to say! I've been a Mason in both the UK and South Africa for over 20 years now, and thankfully I've never had the misfortune to sit in lodge with such judgmental characters. Long may my luck continue.

As far as sources are concerned, all my research is my own. That should have been eminently clear, but instead rather than offer opinion on what is being offered, it's easier to tear up any new theory by saying it doesn't comply with existing peer-review and/or other sources.

For me, what comes across clearly are the close links between the English Magna Carta Templars ...

re: What history is being referred to here?

Next up! The history you requested...

1) THEORY PUSH - An unknown poster makes some huge claims, all based upon personal research and conjectures
2) FORUM RESPONSE - Forum posters challenge and respond pointing this out
3) WOUNDED VICTIM - Rather than simply address the issues raised, the original poster claims victim-hood, persecution, etc...
4) BOGUS REMOVAL REQUEST - The original poster asks to be removed - even though the power to leave the forum and delete his account is in his own hands
5) QUIET DISAPPEARANCE - The original poster stops posting for quite a while to let things settle down, leaving everyone with the impression he has indeed left for good
6) SURPRISING POST BUMP - The original poster uses another account under an assumed name to bump the thread OR he has "a friend" (and ally) do so who appears to have absolutely no visible connection to the original poster, or someone comes across the thread and makes a post related to the "side" issue.
7) SURPRISE RE-ENTRY - The original poster a) reappears suddenly & unexpectedly, b) claims that he is surprised that he is still receiving forum messages , c) pointing out all the offenses to his person, 4) &, despite saying they were leaving, continues to post his personal-unique-special-non-complying "research", rant, etc...

I've seen this unique pattern far too many times over the years to not recognize it for what it is.

re: Who is this character that is supposed to be my doppelganger?

A poster who is well-known, yea "infamous!" for using this unique pattern; it's his "fingerprint"!

re: That it's so amazing "how this universe just spits them out".

Yes, the fingerprint is quite distinct! And impressively unchanging!

re: Thanks coachn, what a lovely thing to say!

8) CUSTOMARY SARCASM - And, finally and not unexpectedly, the verbal cutting of flesh to finish out the pattern! Amazingly distinct!

So, with your questions addressed... Welcome Back!

 

[Winter]

I received an email that there had been a response to my comment on this thread and it appears my login still works. I still don't know how to delete my profile but in the meantime, what is with the character assassination here?

What history is being referred to here? Who is this character that is supposed to be my doppelganger? That it's so amazing "how this universe just spits them out". Thanks coachn, what a lovely thing to say! I've been a Mason in both the UK and South Africa for over 20 years now, and thankfully I've never had the misfortune to sit in lodge with such judgmental characters. Long may my luck continue.

As far as sources are concerned, all my research is my own. That should have been eminently clear, but instead rather than offer opinion on what is being offered, it's easier to tear up any new theory by saying it doesn't comply with existing peer-review and/or other sources.

For me, what comes across clearly are the close links between the English Magna Carta Templars and the later Scots barons that sealed Arbroath. For instance, it's clear (to me at least) that Magna Carta was planned from the Templar's Cressing Temple Barns on Robert FitzWalter's (lead baron of Magna Carta) Little Dunmow estate. All the Magna Carta barons were closely related including de Bohun, de Quincy, de Ros and de Clare, and their immediate descendants also married into the "Black" Douglas and Robert de Brus' family. In fact, the "Black" Douglas, one of the leaders at Bannockburn, was brought up in the French court by his step-mother Eleanor de Lovaine, heiress of Little Dunmow. Some say she might have been "Maid Marion" but that is taking things a little too far, even for me.

The "Black" Douglas is also William St. Clair's (builder of Rosslyn Chapel) maternal great-grandfather. Does this prove descent of the Templars to Rosslyn Chapel, from where St. Clair's daughters and the Atholl "Black knight" of Lorn's son would go on to sire the royal family and every grand master of Scots, Antient and Premier Lodge Freemasonry? No, it doesn't. But it sure is interesting. And once again, these ancestries are all very much public knowledge, being well-known figures, and having been proved time and again in various charters. I can find no citations for the links I've worked on because no-one I know of has actually done the massively time-consuming work of connecting the extensive relationships in all the various trees. The link to the tree I had provided was thus a huge gift in terms of saving time. And although I used the Geni world tree to assist, I cross-referenced everything with Medlands and Burke's Peerage as well. If you suspect my work was fraudulent then you are welcome to follow the links and prove them for yourself too. I had nothing to gain by creating false links.

Anyway, I'm done but at the end of the day, for me the most interesting aspect to consider is that the Templars, while initially diggers (1118-1128), crusading soldiers and bankers (1128-1291), and then administrators in Cyprus (1291-1307), also absorbed much esoteric knowledge from eastern mysticism. We know they helped to bring the practical aspects back to Europe (chess, architecture etc.) but they also encountered the more mystical aspects, and "alchemy" as we know was first an eastern mystic concept. Then, Wolfram's tale of Parzifal tells us how the "grail" moved from France and Flanders to Germany and Scotland, two nations where the Reformation would later emerge. That same spirit also emerged in Abroath, the US Declaration of Independence and the French Revolution. It is that flame of liberty, egality and fraternity that I believe Freemasonry inherited and should continue to uphold.

For in a world where power-hungry, egotistical politicians and rulers seek ever more control over our personal lives, our freedom is sacrosanct, and "as long as a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be subjected to the lordship of the English [or kings or popes or the 'elite']. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself". In that regard, I wish you all your own personal sovereignty and success in doing the work that is yours to do. Laborare est Orare.

This all began because you made the statement:

"I have no doubt that Masonry is the evolution of Tironesian and Templar thought and relationships formed from 1128 onwards, right from Hugh de Payns relationship with Rotrou II of Chateaudun (patron of Bernard of Tiron) and Alfonso "the Battler" (donated his possessions to the Templars as thanks for assisting with the Reconquista) through to William St. Clair in 1450 (the Tiro's - apprentices - built Rosslyn Chapel, alongside the paid-for master builders.)"

And then I asked for your sources that proved such a bold claim, which is when you decided to take that as a personal attack. Just so we are clear on how this situation came about.

 

[coachn]

This all began because you made the statement:

"I have no doubt that Masonry is the evolution of Tironesian and Templar thought and relationships formed from 1128 onwards, right from Hugh de Payns relationship with Rotrou II of Chateaudun (patron of Bernard of Tiron) and Alfonso "the Battler" (donated his possessions to the Templars as thanks for assisting with the Reconquista) through to William St. Clair in 1450 (the Tiro's - apprentices - built Rosslyn Chapel, alongside the paid-for master builders.)"

And then I asked for your sources that proved such a bold claim, which is when you decided to take that as a personal attack. Just so we are clear on how this situation came about.

 

[Bevan Jones]

Coachn - "I've seen this unique pattern far too many times over the years to not recognize it for what it is."

You've got to be kidding me right? Are you seriously suggesting I'm someone else and that I've "bumped" this post up? Dear God man, you need to get out more and get a life.

Despite the fact that you seem to know better, I did walk away from this forum and I did get an email yesterday which prompted me to come here and then I noticed all the crap about me supposedly being someone else? What exactly is this forum meant to be about?

@Mike Martin I signed up here several years ago, having followed you from another UK forum which I can't quite remember now. I still have no idea how to delete my profile so if you (or anyone else) can point me to the right place, or at least where I can turn off emails and never have to be reminded of this place again, that would be great. Under "Your Account -> Preferences" all the checkboxes for Email Options are unchecked so not sure why I'm receiving emails still. Thanks in advance for any assistance.

 

[Brother JStoffo]

Hello again Gents. I thought that I should follow Brother Glen Cook's advice and take some time to get to know this forum before making any further criticism. I am only trying to take an active role and participate in Masonry wherever I can, and I have read lots of positive commentary on this forum. I can assure you that I am an independent Mason from Florida and am not Brother Beven Jones. I do find his genealogy theory very fascinating and interesting. You can confirm my identity as I am the Treasurer of Marathon Lodge 323 and have never been to Africa. Go to the Grand Lodge of Florida's web site and look up Marathon Lodge 323.

 

[Winter]

Hello again Gents. I thought that I should follow Brother Glen Cook's advice and take some time to get to know this forum before making any further criticism. I am only trying to take an active role and participate in Masonry wherever I can, and I have read lots of positive commentary on this forum. I can assure you that I am an independent Mason from Florida and am not Brother Beven Jones. I do find his genealogy theory very fascinating and interesting. You can confirm my identity as I am the Treasurer of Marathon Lodge 323 and have never been to Africa. Go to the Grand Lodge of Florida's web site and look up Marathon Lodge 323.

I don't think anyone is suggesting you are. If so, I missed it. I don't think yours is a dup account.

 

[coachn]

Coachn - "I've seen this unique pattern far too many times over the years to not recognize it for what it is."

You've got to be kidding me right?

<sigh> Nah! The pattern is what it is. Hang around forums long enough and you'll see it repeated all too often.

Are you seriously suggesting I'm someone else and that I've "bumped" this post up?

No. I am seriously stating it's been done many times by individuals wanting to draw attention for whatever reasons, either by them or another who does it for them OR a un-associated stranger who happens to find the interaction interesting enough to warrant commenting.

Hence the pattern being recognized. Your pattern appears all too familiar, hence the responses with the numbered items provided.

If it's any solace, you're not unique in your posting patterns. You appear to be a natural.

Dear God man, you need to get out more and get a life.

Yeah, that goes under item #8 on the list. To which far too many posters respond: Doctor, heal thyself.

Despite the fact that you seem to know better,

Never claimed this. But I can see how you could arrive at it. You asked for history. I provided it to you. Now you're insulted and returning the favor? Once again, see List Item #8...

I did walk away from this forum and I did get an email yesterday which prompted me to come here and then I noticed all the crap about me supposedly being someone else?

HERE'S AN EDUCATIONAL MOMENT: Have you ever considered deleting your email address from your profile? It's a fairly simple act, easily done, and it would remedy your issue with receiving these annoying emails. How about "deselecting" all your email notification preferences so you 'll never get another email about your post from the forum ever? How about removing your mugshot and name from your profile and even erasing your posts?

It's pretty straight forward... Of course, most all of this is found in the esoteric part of your preferences ;-)

SEE GRAPHIC FOR FURTHER DETAINS:

What exactly is this forum meant to be about?

Education! Sometimes on Freemasonry, other times on Masonry, accompanied by the usual and appropriate ironic and humorous banter about complaining posters, and occasionally, when appropriate, on posting patterns and instructions on email notification removal.

Please feel free to ask if you require further instruction.

 

[Glen Cook]

You’ve been a member of the group since 2018. It appears the majority of your posts have been deleted

Thank you for proving my point.

I received an email that there had been a response to my comment on this thread and it appears my login still works. I still don't know how to delete my profile but in the meantime, what is with the character assassination here?

What history is being referred to here? Who is this character that is supposed to be my doppelganger? That it's so amazing "how this universe just spits them out". Thanks coachn, what a lovely thing to say! I've been a Mason in both the UK and South Africa for over 20 years now, and thankfully I've never had the misfortune to sit in lodge with such judgmental characters. Long may my luck continue.

As far as sources are concerned, all my research is my own. That should have been eminently clear, but instead rather than offer opinion on what is being offered, it's easier to tear up any new theory by saying it doesn't comply with existing peer-review and/or other sources.

For me, what comes across clearly are the close links between the English Magna Carta Templars and the later Scots barons that sealed Arbroath. For instance, it's clear (to me at least) that Magna Carta was planned from the Templar's Cressing Temple Barns on Robert FitzWalter's (lead baron of Magna Carta) Little Dunmow estate. All the Magna Carta barons were closely related including de Bohun, de Quincy, de Ros and de Clare, and their immediate descendants also married into the "Black" Douglas and Robert de Brus' family. In fact, the "Black" Douglas, one of the leaders at Bannockburn, was brought up in the French court by his step-mother Eleanor de Lovaine, heiress of Little Dunmow. Some say she might have been "Maid Marion" but that is taking things a little too far, even for me.

The "Black" Douglas is also William St. Clair's (builder of Rosslyn Chapel) maternal great-grandfather. Does this prove descent of the Templars to Rosslyn Chapel, from where St. Clair's daughters and the Atholl "Black knight" of Lorn's son would go on to sire the royal family and every grand master of Scots, Antient and Premier Lodge Freemasonry? No, it doesn't. But it sure is interesting. And once again, these ancestries are all very much public knowledge, being well-known figures, and having been proved time and again in various charters. I can find no citations for the links I've worked on because no-one I know of has actually done the massively time-consuming work of connecting the extensive relationships in all the various trees. The link to the tree I had provided was thus a huge gift in terms of saving time. And although I used the Geni world tree to assist, I cross-referenced everything with Medlands and Burke's Peerage as well. If you suspect my work was fraudulent then you are welcome to follow the links and prove them for yourself too. I had nothing to gain by creating false links.

Anyway, I'm done but at the end of the day, for me the most interesting aspect to consider is that the Templars, while initially diggers (1118-1128), crusading soldiers and bankers (1128-1291), and then administrators in Cyprus (1291-1307), also absorbed much esoteric knowledge from eastern mysticism. We know they helped to bring the practical aspects back to Europe (chess, architecture etc.) but they also encountered the more mystical aspects, and "alchemy" as we know was first an eastern mystic concept. Then, Wolfram's tale of Parzifal tells us how the "grail" moved from France and Flanders to Germany and Scotland, two nations where the Reformation would later emerge. That same spirit also emerged in Abroath, the US Declaration of Independence and the French Revolution. It is that flame of liberty, egality and fraternity that I believe Freemasonry inherited and should continue to uphold.

For in a world where power-hungry, egotistical politicians and rulers seek ever more control over our personal lives, our freedom is sacrosanct, and "as long as a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be subjected to the lordship of the English [or kings or popes or the 'elite']. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself". In that regard, I wish you all your own personal sovereignty and success in doing the work that is yours to do. Laborare est Orare.

 

[coachn]

You’ve been a member of the group since 2018. It appears the majority of your posts have been deleted

Thank you for proving my point.

 

[Mike Martin]

@Mike Martin I signed up here several years ago, having followed you from another UK forum which I can't quite remember now. I still have no idea how to delete my profile so if you (or anyone else) can point me to the right place, or at least where I can turn off emails and never have to be reminded of this place again, that would be great. Under "Your Account -> Preferences" all the checkboxes for Email Options are unchecked so not sure why I'm receiving emails still. Thanks in advance for any assistance.

I've got no idea but suspect that if you message Blake Bowden the Admin he will know.

 

[Brother JStoffo]

Reading Building Free Men by Brother John Nagy. I just read about 12 pages on the difference between Masonry and Freemasonry. I do not fully understand the distinction. Can anyone who has read this book contribute your thoughts on understanding this difference?