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Greetings from Portugal

DanielR

Registered User
http://visao.sapo.pt/actualidade/portugal/2018-03-23-Contas-da-maconaria-sob-suspeita

This just keeps going from bad to worse. Now the Grand Master of the Grand Lodge you are in amity with is being sued in civil court for inappropriate use of funds. Freemasonry is being dragged through the mud in full view of the profane Portugal because of this man. Utter chaos, and again, I am very happy to have no part in it save in welcoming brothers who have left it.

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Glen Cook

G A Cook
Site Benefactor
As you gain experience, you will find that our leadership sometimes disappoints, and learn to separate the leader from the organisation. If we were to abandon the organisation when this occurred, we should shortly be sitting by ourselves st home.
 

DanielR

Registered User
As you gain experience, you will find that our leadership sometimes disappoints, and learn to separate the leader from the organisation. If we were to abandon the organisation when this occurred, we should shortly be sitting by ourselves st home.
For the third time in this conversation, I am not equating the leader with the organisation. And again, you seem to believe you know a lot about my experience and where it is lacking, since you feel the need to impart wisdom unto me in aphorism format. Now, had you known that I have actually been a part on a nationwide programme that trains organisations in Leadership for years, we could have done without the condescending tone. But let us leave acidity aside and try to be objective. Leadership in this case is not "disappointing". It is involved in financial scandals and internal dictatorial purges. Euphemisms sometimes put a pretry ribbon on ugly truths (here's some aphoristic wisdom in return).

For the most part, you cannot choose your bosses, but you can choose your leaders (who are not necessarily one and the same person). Freemasonry has no bosses, it has leaders. I know many people in that Grand Lodge who are true Freemasons and have the utmost respect for them. Elections are coming soon and it is my hope things will change. If they do not, it is a moral imperative not to associate yourself with an organisation who has someone of this character heading it. Doing nothing is tacitly admitting you feel represented by that individual, and that you condone his use of the money you give him to unilaterally enter shady deals.

If you have your son or daughter in a school where leadership "disappoints" because it knows nothing about Education, you would not blame it on everyone working at the school, but you would take your child elsewhere. In a Masonic Grand Lodge, where Morality is central, the same principle applies if its leader is devoid of it. And that being the case, it is far better to be sitting by ourselves at home than call such a man - and suspected criminal - your Brother and leader just because not all the apples.in the basket are rotten.


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Glen Cook

G A Cook
Site Benefactor
and yet, for at least the third time, you advocate abandoning the organization, and do so repeatedly in the post, because of allegations against an individual in leadership. Indeed, this was part of your stated reasoning for not being part of legitimate Masonry. Let me suggest a rhetorical litmus test for your view: if the current GM were removed, woyld you seek to join the recognised GL? I really am not soliciting an answer, just encouraging reflection.

Training people in organizational leadership principles is not the same as being involved in organizations or the same as longitude of experience. Further, generalizing from training on leadership to specific recommendations on individual involvement in an organization is not necessarily an even flow. I remember a new Mason who had been extensively involved in Scouting leadership. He felt this qualified him for Masonic leadership. He was a failure as a Masonic leader. He did not understand the organization.

Having actually been part of the removal process of a national masonic leader, knowledge of leadership principles wasn’t the key. Rather, knowledge of Masonic organizations, organizational change in Masonic organizations, a commitment to the organization rather than the individual, willingness to foster change, and guts were the important factors. When there was disruption in GLNF (largely because of a single individual), many GLs reacted by suspending recognition. They did not abandon (what we view as) legitimate Freemasonry.

That is where we also differ in our views. I think one can legitimately hold membership in an organization without condoning the actions of the leadership. I am a member of a political party. I don’t condone the actions or all the positions of the current party leadership. No one has argued there is a moral imperative I leave the party.

I realize my statement on your limited experience in any genus of Freemasonry can be taken as condescending. Making declarations of moral imperatives can come off as condescending, superior, and lecturing as well. Some might argue there were less than kind motives in your reporting of this disruption, as noted by the need to point out it is the GL with which the majority of us are in amity and your own views, again, as to the organization, rather than just pointing out an admittedly legitimate Masonuc news item. So, yes, let’s do avoid the acidity—or at least acknowledge we are taking the same tone. So, yes, your comments to me do express the outrage and naïveté of the neophyte and new convert to his cause. Perhaps I am more jaundiced and cynical in my view, finding no organization or its leadership to be perfect, and that men demonstrate character flaws, perhaps even of a criminal nature. So if I am a committed member, I foster change. I don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.
 

DanielR

Registered User
and yet, for at least the third time, you advocate abandoning the organization, and do so repeatedly in the post, because of allegations against an individual in leadership. Indeed, this was part of your stated reasoning for not being part of legitimate Masonry. Let me suggest a rhetorical litmus test for your view: if the current GM were removed, woyld you seek to join the recognised GL? I really am not soliciting an answer, just encouraging reflection.

Training people in organizational leadership principles is not the same as being involved in organizations or the same as longitude of experience. Further, generalizing from training on leadership to specific recommendations on individual involvement in an organization is not necessarily an even flow. I remember a new Mason who had been extensively involved in Scouting leadership. He felt this qualified him for Masonic leadership. He was a failure as a Masonic leader. He did not understand the organization.

Having actually been part of the removal process of a national masonic leader, knowledge of leadership principles wasn’t the key. Rather, knowledge of Masonic organizations, organizational change in Masonic organizations, a commitment to the organization rather than the individual, willingness to foster change, and guts were the important factors. When there was disruption in GLNF (largely because of a single individual), many GLs reacted by suspending recognition. They did not abandon (what we view as) legitimate Freemasonry.

That is where we also differ in our views. I think one can legitimately hold membership in an organization without condoning the actions of the leadership. I am a member of a political party. I don’t condone the actions or all the positions of the current party leadership. No one has argued there is a moral imperative I leave the party.

I realize my statement on your limited experience in any genus of Freemasonry can be taken as condescending. Making declarations of moral imperatives can come off as condescending, superior, and lecturing as well. Some might argue there were less than kind motives in your reporting of this disruption, as noted by the need to point out it is the GL with which the majority of us are in amity and your own views, again, as to the organization, rather than just pointing out an admittedly legitimate Masonuc news item. So, yes, let’s do avoid the acidity—or at least acknowledge we are taking the same tone. So, yes, your comments to me do express the outrage and naïveté of the neophyte and new convert to his cause. Perhaps I am more jaundiced and cynical in my view, finding no organization or its leadership to be perfect, and that men demonstrate character flaws, perhaps even of a criminal nature. So if I am a committed member, I foster change. I don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.
There is no progress to be had in this discussion. You misinterpret my words and speak of things you do not know with far too much authority for us to ever reach a level plane of discussion, so for my part, it ends here. On the former count, you say I advocated leaving the organization. I said no such thing. I advocated staying and changing things, and leaving only if failure to do that meant obedience to and fellowship with a man who does not represent Masonic values. On the second count, I am a neophyte and you are not, but apologies, you do not know Portugal and what goes on in it better than I do. I would remind you that my experience with Portuguese Freemasonry and its members far predates my entering it. Plus, you know, I live here.

Your comment on leadership has no bearing on what I said, which was a mere answer to your condescending remark, to the extent I don't even know how to answer it. It is also misguided if considered on its own but I will not lecture. So, onwards.

You did not let up on the condescending tone, since you repeatedly used the words "cause" and "mission" to describe my position on this matter, which does seem to imply an accusation of fanaticism of sorts. I won't dignify that with an answer. So thank you, this has been enlightening. Since we are not Brothers and I am an inexperienced brainwashed angry little neophyte on a mission, there doesn't seem much reason for me to stick around. Sorry for not answering your Litmus test but I don't play ball in rhetorical exercises meant to spur on my reflection. It is kind of you but my reflection was already well on its way before we met.

Nice app while it lasted. I'll leave you to your business, then. If this is the level of discussion to be found here, I'm not really interested in partaking. A final word: sorry if it seemed like I was trying to undermine your amity with the GL in question by pointing out the facts about its GM. I did mention at the beginning that who you are in amity with is utterly irrelevant to me but alas, that got lost along the way too.

Enjoy the bath water. Baby - out.

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