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How old is freemasonry?

nixxon2000

Premium Member
So a brother did a presentation on the age of freemasonry today. after his research he believes that Socrates was talking about masonry in 500bc.

It got me thinking how old is it really? Has anyone else here done this kind of research and what was your findings?

I really just want to see what people here think.

Thanks


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pointwithinacircle2

Rapscallion
Premium Member
I think it depends on which Freemasonry you are talking about. The time frame for Speculative Freemasonry runs from 1717 to the present. Before that we have two time periods to discuss. The first is the time frame of Operative Freemasonry, and the second is the time frame for the evolution of Operative Freemasonry into Speculative Freemasonry.

But really, any discussion of Operative Freemasonry hangs on one vital question; "What do you think Operative Freemasonry actually is?" Some, perhaps like the Brother you mentioned, see Operative Freemasonry as the pursuit of truth that goes back to the first time a man tried to rise above his fear and superstition and discover the truth about the world around him and his relationship to that world. Others will say that Operative Freemasons were men who stacked rocks and learned enough geometry to build arches and stuff.

To me being a Freemason means to be a protector of knowledge against its three greatest enemies; Fear, Ignorance, and Superstition. In ancient times secrecy was used to protect knowledge from those who sought to destroy it. Today circumspection and silence are recommended.

Many today will say that there is no certain proof of what Operative Freemasonry was all about. Yet there are clues in our history if we can find it in out ourselves to trust our hearts.
 

BryanMaloney

Premium Member
A case could be made that "Philosophical Operative Freemasonry" could not have existed until the European High Middle Ages. Before this time, the stone-stackers were deemed unworthy of intellectual consideration, and stone-stacking was just a lesser pursuit, like all other menial tasks. It may have had military or civil use, but it was one thing to be a proper architect who never dirtied his hands with the tools of a mason and quite another to be an actual grubby little mason. That was the attitude of the ancient Egyptians, the ancient Greeks, the Romans, and pretty much anyone else of that era.

It was the medieval period that saw the dignification of labor as an outlet or realization of higher spiritual or philosophical pursuits. In Aristotle's era, and for millenia before and after, labor was considered a detraction from spiritual and philosophical pursuits.

Of course, the Enlightenment had its own silly fairy tales, one of which was that the Middle Ages was a "dark age", where all learning was exterminated, no advancement occurred, and every single thought was rigidly dictated by the Pope. Then out of nowhere the ancient Greeks reappeared and in the space of ten minutes all the abilities of the early Renaissance appeared--POOF!

My own opinion, as should be obvious, is that even Operative Masonry as we understand it did not and could not have existed until the Middle Ages, when spiritual, scientific, philosophical, and practical approaches united like they never had before been permitted to do in human history.

The Medieval mason was a stoneworker, an architect, an engineer, a geometer, a civil planner, an inspector of public construction. At no time previous to that was the mason responsible for so much. Before then, the mason was just someone who was told what to do by someone much more important.
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
How do you account for all the massive and marvelous stone & cement oriented and mechanically inclined engineering undertaken by the Romans? Were not the Romans involved in these adventures not stoneworkers, architects, engineers, geometers, civil planners, and inspectors of public construction?
 

BryanMaloney

Premium Member
The Romans had distinct social separations between the planners/engineers/architects on the one hand and the grubs who actually handled the stone or poured the concrete on the other. Labor had no dignity for the Romans, only directing labor did. You can have amazing projects directed by an elite who never dirtied their hands or only had a token dirtying in the process of their education. The "architects, engineers, geometers, civil planners, and inspectors of public construction" weren't the stonemasons. The stonemasons were mere laborers who had no prospect of becoming "architects, engineers, geometers, civil planners, and inspectors of public construction". The idea that a stonemasons could become "architects, engineers, geometers, civil planners, and inspectors of public construction" was a product of the Middle Ages, when labor was given dignity. Oddly enough, this dignity was bestowed by agents of the same "Catholic Church" that gets reviled so often, most often through the operations of the laboring monastaries. Many of the early great medieval masons were monks.

That being said, as the Renaissance started rolling around, monastic society had sunk into decadence, where many orders of monks eschewed labor and let lay commoners do all the work.
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
It almost sounds like you're using the label "stonemason" to describe two entirely different groups. One that did the work of apprentices and journeymen who would never have any hope of becoming masters (Roman times) and another group where they not only had hope, but did (Post Roman times). Did either time have the Masters involved in that actual grunt work, or did both times have the masters just directing the actual work?
 

BryanMaloney

Premium Member
It almost sounds like you're using the label "stonemason" to describe two entirely different groups. One that did the work of apprentices and journeymen who would never have any hope of becoming masters (Roman times) and another group where they not only had hope, but did (Post Roman times). Did either time have the Masters involved in that actual grunt work, or did both times have the masters just directing the actual work?

The Masters of the medieval masons started out doing grunt work. They started out as apprentices. Before the medieval period, the only way to be the equivalent of a "Master" was to be born to it. Thus, the fusion of Masonry as we know it, where the Apprentice can become the Master, did not exist until the Middle Ages. Everything before that is prologue, merely prelude.

It's like claiming that the sonata form of the symphony began in the Middle Ages. It didn't. Its ancestors were there, but the sonata form came later, a descendant of medieval music, but not the medieval music.

Operative Masonry is a descendant of many threads, but in and of itself, it did not exist until the Middle Ages. Roman, Greek, Egyptian, Levantine, etc. all those practices are ancestors. Each ancient masonic practice is tributary, but Operative Masonry is the ocean. We do not consider the Atlantic Ocean to be one and the same with the Ohio River, after all.
 

BryanMaloney

Premium Member
Well there had to be master masons who perfected all the stoned that built the pyramids!

The stonecutters were not Master Masons as we understand the term. They may have been well paid compared to other stone workers, but they were still schlubs. They had little prestige or authority. The directors of the project were born to the social stratum. The actual stonecutters had no chance and no hope of directing a project in that culture.
 

dfreybur

Premium Member
The stonecutters were not Master Masons as we understand the term. They may have been well paid compared to other stone workers, but they were still schlubs. They had little prestige or authority. The directors of the project were born to the social stratum. The actual stonecutters had no chance and no hope of directing a project in that culture.

We know enough about Roman culture to say this about the builders of the aqueducts and so on. Asserting this about ancient Egypt is much more problematic. Consider the Inca empire - Local farmers were required to labor for the empire during their off seasons and then return to their farms during their crop seasons. The labor force was a peasant citizenry. Not high class but not the servants either. Once irrigation was invented the same system might have been in place in Egypt for millennia before records of slave labor started. So it is not unlikely that the status of the laborers changed up and down considerably across the centuries.
 

BryanMaloney

Premium Member
We know enough about Roman culture to say this about the builders of the aqueducts and so on. Asserting this about ancient Egypt is much more problematic. Consider the Inca empire - Local farmers were required to labor for the empire during their off seasons and then return to their farms during their crop seasons. The labor force was a peasant citizenry. Not high class but not the servants either. Once irrigation was invented the same system might have been in place in Egypt for millennia before records of slave labor started. So it is not unlikely that the status of the laborers changed up and down considerably across the centuries.

The labor for the great Egyptian projects was free. That's been well established by more recent Egyptological discoveries, but it was still low status. The leaders of the projects didn't start out as hewers and haulers.

I do wonder what is wrong with accepting that Freemasonry began in the Middle Ages as the heir of many traditions, including the Roman Catholic revalorization of labor as inherently noble .
 

Levelhead

Premium Member
It started to be written down at a certain time as in records but has been in existence for way longer.
 

BryanMaloney

Premium Member
That claim can be made about anything. It can be claimed that the knowledge of electron microscopes was passed down mouth-to-ear from the paleolithic, in unbroken sequence, entirely without writing down a single thing, until the world was "ready", and then an "initiate" revealed the "mystery" in written form while merely pretending to be conducting experiments on the topic in order to discover it.
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
And for the very same reasons one would not want to stick to what is verifiable. Freemasonry is not about verifiable facts. It's about introducing men to the fact that not all things are verifiable. ;)
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
But if anything can be made up, why worry about truth at all?
Great question! Freemasonry reinforces the Understanding that Truth and Fact are not the same thing. Much within Freemasonry is made up (and in some view, too much!) Facts are not the issue. Truth is and what is fabricated is intended to convey Truth, not Fact. (You find this in religious text all the time!)

To respectfully respond to your question one must understand and accept that because something is made up only means that it might not be factual, but it is intended to convey the truth none the less... at least, to those not stuck in factual thought.
 
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