Origin of speculative masonry

Discussion in 'Frequently Asked Questions' started by jermy Bell, Apr 12, 2019.

  1. Mike Martin

    Mike Martin Eternal Apprentice Premium Member

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    To be fair, the military format of the 18th Degree and all of the rest of the French degrees didn't exist before their invention in the wake of the famous oration to French Freemasons delivered by the Chevalier Ramsay (a Scot who lived most of his life in France) in 1737. These French degrees which had started being worked by the late 1760s were subsequently exported to the US and became what is known as the Scottish Rite today.
     
  2. JamestheJust

    JamestheJust Registered User

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    >the military format of the 18th Degree and all of the rest of the French degrees didn't exist before

    So where in ancient accounts do we find a heavenly sovereign and princes (sons) that were military?
     
  3. Elexir

    Elexir Registered User

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    AA(S)R has nothing to do with anything ancient but come from a french rite. Its actully not hard to deduce where things come from if you actully study french freemasonry.
     
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  4. Mike Martin

    Mike Martin Eternal Apprentice Premium Member

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    We don't. I suspect that you didn't read my reply properly.
     
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  5. Luigi Visentin

    Luigi Visentin Registered User

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    Sorry. I had to cancel the reply as it was incomplete.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2019
  6. Luigi Visentin

    Luigi Visentin Registered User

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    Such an affirmation means that at least we should eliminate the hypothesis of a military origin of the Craft as there are evidences about. Unfortunately I have not found these evidences in Masonic literature but perhaps there are other that I have not found.

    If it is correct that the Scottish Rite and particularly the most part of its degrees is a product of eighteen-century (but I do not think that this is completely true) we can not say with certainty if before 1700 Freemasonry had a military form or not. Or better, I am of the idea that the “French invention” is likely a modification of the original form of Freemasonry and not simply a product of Ramsay’s speech, which only allowed the misleading connection with the Templars.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2019
  7. Elexir

    Elexir Registered User

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    Actully no-one is saying that freemasonry has its orgins in France. This disscusion is in regards to an appendant body that originated later.
    When it comes to AA(S)R we do however have a trace back to France and the jacobite struggle (schottish) and later that the rite recived its current overall form in the early 1800s in the US.
    Maybe there is litterature wich you dont have acess to that points to certain ideas?

    French invention?
    Do you mean the french rite (not the AA(S)R?
    Freemasonry in France in the 1700s was a complex scene with a lot of diffrent things happening so you need to specify yourself here.
     
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  8. Luigi Visentin

    Luigi Visentin Registered User

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    Likely I have expressed myself wrong as I though it was referred not only to the appendant bodies and I was referring to the AA(S)R. My mistake.

    No discussion about this. However its very beginning are unknown except from the fact that since 1733 / 1735 there are traces about higher degrees and "scots lodges" and not in France but in England and Ireland.

    Sorry but I have not understood your sentence.
     
  9. Elexir

    Elexir Registered User

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    Yes there existed a lot of higher degrees in England as well as France.
    We do however know that the AA(S)R originated in France in a rite wich had 25 degrees with more degrees added and the AA(S)R was created around 1801. Every part of this is traceble.

    If I remember correctly, you are not a freemason. So maybe there are things that you are not allowed acess to that fully points at certain ideas.
     
  10. Luigi Visentin

    Luigi Visentin Registered User

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    Shhhhh! If my wife discover it my two free evenings every months are in danger! :D:D:D:D

    Seriously speaking I know the story of the AA(S)R at least the one reported by various scholars. I'm not however involved in the Rite, therefore if there is anything more that is explained to higher degrees I cannot know it, except what is reported by various scholars (I mean referred only to history, not to contents). However the "association" that I have found in my researches which has a lot of similarities with Freemasonry had also a system that could be defined as "degree of perfection", therefore if my findings are correct, the AA(S)R pre-history could be older than what is thought.
     
  11. JamestheJust

    JamestheJust Registered User

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    >a system that could be defined as "degree of perfection",

    Locally the 18th degree "perfects" the new brother. Allegedly it is a Christian degree, but I thought that only Christ was perfect.

    The degree is full of alchemical symbolism directed to the perfection of matter. If so the original working may date much earlier than the 18th century.
     
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  12. Elexir

    Elexir Registered User

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    The AA(S)R dont even exist in regular form here in Sweden, I think LDH uses it but thats it.
    And here lies the problem. Without knowing what actully happends in the degrees or how it evolved or its relations with other rites. Again you need to look deeper at not just shallow.

    Actully just becuse something in the degree has been used earlier dont mean that the degree is older. The more you look at it its obvious that freemasonry in many aspects are in many ways sort of "best of collection of esoteric ideas"
     
  13. Luigi Visentin

    Luigi Visentin Registered User

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    No comment, also because we are likely off-topic.

    Coming back to the initial question, my answer is: at least since from the oldest information we have. The Regius Poem and the other manuscripts cite many different sources like the Polychronicon, the Historia Scholastica, the Ethymologiarum of Isidore and The Golden Legend and others not clearly declared. All these books were popular, but not so common, because books were expensive and rare, at least till Gutenberg. Moreover the real operative masons of middle age were mainly illiterate (as also many nobles and even church people). The text of the Masonic manuscripts instead is for people who had a knowledge that at the time was characteristics of a higher education (read: at university level or similar). And hidden under the text there are many other references that denotes a high cultural level for the time. It is not by chance that the Liberal Arts are cited, which is also important for the answer as the speculation on the knowledge and education, basic and spiritual, took a big part in the intellectual discussions in the late middle age. A poor stonecutter could not access even to a very basic instruction, let alone an higher education.
     
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  14. BroBook

    BroBook Premium Member

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    Greetings Brothers it's been awhile, good stuff. You all covered everything I have heard and more !

    Sent from my LML212VL using My Freemasonry mobile app
     
  15. Elexir

    Elexir Registered User

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    Im going to start at the bottom here becuse thats actully not completly true. While illitarate masons did not have acess to written material the churches provided more then enough education on spiritual matters just by using symbolism in a more profound manner then we see in modern time wich is evident in older churches.
    They also needed to know where to put what in a church becuse positioning actully matters.

    I also think we do sometimes under estimate non-university education.
    In reality, who understands applied physics more? A professor or someone who drives a forklift for a living?
    How electricity work? A proffesor or an electrician?

    I honestly dont see the masonic manuscripts as not avalible to normal people. Remember that the Illiad was actully memorized and told directly from memory before it was written down.
     
  16. Center

    Center Registered User

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    this question, the role of the Christianity, and if there were initially two or three de) are the ones I heard most in my research of the Royal Art
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2019
  17. Center

    Center Registered User

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    I really like your opinion, but is an upright familiar feeling I am acquainted when I read your posts.

    In point of fact @Luigi Visentin is conceivably referring to the "gradi di perfezionamento," that literally do not refer to an ethereal degree of perfection but the perfecting ones. So paradoxically are the degrees, regrettably not entirely object of proper installation in these days, that are far to be a degree of perfection, in fact some writer I do not remember the name claims are the ones of the ancient minor mysteries 4-14, in the system of the Massoneria Rossa(Red), till the maximum expression of the 18th grade, where the red terminates maybe in the breast of the Pelican, so that begin after the philosophy, because it goes really far imo from the philanthropic meaning some author puts really central. And is on this regard that tracing back the origin of the 18th degree is a really demanding life mission, especially if we think over the role of the Christianity, or even previous associations, just to mention one stop that is near the Christianity not only temporary, the Academy of the free thought in Athens

    Of course the tools a candidate takes can be a life transforming experience in the first degrees, or even after, not too mention a simple discussion not dogmatic with free men as a building stone.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2019
  18. JamestheJust

    JamestheJust Registered User

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    >the red terminates maybe in the breast of the Pelican,

    Quite so. The preparation of the perfected matter occurs in the Pelican.

    [​IMG]




    Here is a factory-made Pelican

    [​IMG]
     
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  19. JamestheJust

    JamestheJust Registered User

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    >tracing back the origin of the 18th degree is a really demanding life mission

    The names of the three leading Sumerian gods appear in the local 18th ritual - in a slightly altered form to suit Jewish beliefs. The same occurs in the older form of Holy Royal Arch. Abraham was from Sumer.
     
  20. Mike Martin

    Mike Martin Eternal Apprentice Premium Member

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    I have difficulty with this contention and I would be grateful for your clarification as to its foundation.

    I have read the Regius Poem many times since it was first made available on-line some years ago. I don't remember it citing any of the books you mention and its contents don't seem to approximate to their claimed contents either for those who haven't before you can read it here: http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/regius.html
     
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